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  • MegaBee
    MegaBee Posts: 1,151 Chairperson of the Boards

    @Daniel2121 said:
    I found the most annoying thing about Leapfrog is sending the supported character Away. I'm fine with the invisibility as it is. Not many ways to counter the Away status however. The main one in my mind is just SHEB (Space Hunter Elsa Bloodstone, or alternatively just 5* Elsa) who just dropped here recently.

    I like sending the supported character Away because the Leapfrog is also Away. You can then proceed to mollywhop the other two opponents.

  • bbigler
    bbigler Posts: 2,159 Chairperson of the Boards

    Regarding placement vs grinding for rewards:

    Someone grinds away to get rewards, which isn't fun. Then they use those resources to improve their teams. Then they use their improved teams to grind away for more rewards. The endless loop. The reward for playing the game is playing the game. It's honestly pointless.

    Now if you have a goal to "accomplish" something in the game, that's better, but is that fun? If you're not having fun playing the game, then you're doing it wrong.

  • entrailbucket
    entrailbucket Posts: 6,841 Chairperson of the Boards

    @bbigler said:
    Regarding placement vs grinding for rewards:

    Someone grinds away to get rewards, which isn't fun. Then they use those resources to improve their teams. Then they use their improved teams to grind away for more rewards. The endless loop. The reward for playing the game is playing the game. It's honestly pointless.

    Now if you have a goal to "accomplish" something in the game, that's better, but is that fun? If you're not having fun playing the game, then you're doing it wrong.

    And what might be that goal? What's something somebody might want to accomplish in the game?

    Maybe a more casual player just wants to roster, champion, or ascend their favorite characters, so they can play with them.

    But for daily players who are grinding rewards, I bet their actual goal (stated or not) is to get or stay competitive. They're hoarding tokens or optimizing stuff and bonusing the best characters to get a stronger roster, not because they're huge fans of Sam Wilson or Juggernaut, but because those guys let them play faster and score better and win more and improve their position relative to everybody else, or (if they're near the top already) to keep pace with everybody else -- and that's an even more powerful motivator.

    If you remove competition, leaderboards, ELO, hopping, etc from the game, it removes all of that. I do all this grinding to improve my roster, for what? The game is a treadmill, and other players are what keeps it moving.

  • entrailbucket
    entrailbucket Posts: 6,841 Chairperson of the Boards

    @dianetics said:
    Taking supports away in PvP is not removing competition and you know it.

    @entrailbucket You have always decried the "overpowered" things. When Chasm was around you **** and moaned, when Polaris was around you **** and moaned, and when SheThor was around you **** and moaned.
    Now that these supports are here you seem to defend it.
    Even though they are wildly overpowered and strong you don't seem to care as much now as you did before.

    I am crying foul because there is a group of people (me included) that have the best supports at max rank and we have a HUGE advantage now.

    Oh absolutely not. How'd you get that from this?

  • DAZ0273
    DAZ0273 Posts: 11,321 Chairperson of the Boards

    @entrailbucket said:

    @bbigler said:
    Regarding placement vs grinding for rewards:

    Someone grinds away to get rewards, which isn't fun. Then they use those resources to improve their teams. Then they use their improved teams to grind away for more rewards. The endless loop. The reward for playing the game is playing the game. It's honestly pointless.

    Now if you have a goal to "accomplish" something in the game, that's better, but is that fun? If you're not having fun playing the game, then you're doing it wrong.

    And what might be that goal? What's something somebody might want to accomplish in the game?

    Maybe a more casual player just wants to roster, champion, or ascend their favorite characters, so they can play with them.

    But for daily players who are grinding rewards, I bet their actual goal (stated or not) is to get or stay competitive. They're hoarding tokens or optimizing stuff and bonusing the best characters to get a stronger roster, not because they're huge fans of Sam Wilson or Juggernaut, but because those guys let them play faster and score better and win more and improve their position relative to everybody else, or (if they're near the top already) to keep pace with everybody else -- and that's an even more powerful motivator.

    If you remove competition, leaderboards, ELO, hopping, etc from the game, it removes all of that. I do all this grinding to improve my roster, for what? The game is a treadmill, and other players are what keeps it moving.

    Did we not establish that most players (not you) are average? I don't think CASUAL players even rank at what you have said.

  • entrailbucket
    entrailbucket Posts: 6,841 Chairperson of the Boards

    @DAZ0273 said:

    @entrailbucket said:

    @bbigler said:
    Regarding placement vs grinding for rewards:

    Someone grinds away to get rewards, which isn't fun. Then they use those resources to improve their teams. Then they use their improved teams to grind away for more rewards. The endless loop. The reward for playing the game is playing the game. It's honestly pointless.

    Now if you have a goal to "accomplish" something in the game, that's better, but is that fun? If you're not having fun playing the game, then you're doing it wrong.

    And what might be that goal? What's something somebody might want to accomplish in the game?

    Maybe a more casual player just wants to roster, champion, or ascend their favorite characters, so they can play with them.

    But for daily players who are grinding rewards, I bet their actual goal (stated or not) is to get or stay competitive. They're hoarding tokens or optimizing stuff and bonusing the best characters to get a stronger roster, not because they're huge fans of Sam Wilson or Juggernaut, but because those guys let them play faster and score better and win more and improve their position relative to everybody else, or (if they're near the top already) to keep pace with everybody else -- and that's an even more powerful motivator.

    If you remove competition, leaderboards, ELO, hopping, etc from the game, it removes all of that. I do all this grinding to improve my roster, for what? The game is a treadmill, and other players are what keeps it moving.

    Did we not establish that most players (not you) are average? I don't think CASUAL players even rank at what you have said.

    You don't think casual players might have a goal of rostering Wolverine to play the game with him?

  • KGB
    KGB Posts: 3,648 Chairperson of the Boards

    @entrailbucket said:

    @DAZ0273 said:

    @entrailbucket said:

    @bbigler said:
    Regarding placement vs grinding for rewards:

    Someone grinds away to get rewards, which isn't fun. Then they use those resources to improve their teams. Then they use their improved teams to grind away for more rewards. The endless loop. The reward for playing the game is playing the game. It's honestly pointless.

    Now if you have a goal to "accomplish" something in the game, that's better, but is that fun? If you're not having fun playing the game, then you're doing it wrong.

    And what might be that goal? What's something somebody might want to accomplish in the game?

    Maybe a more casual player just wants to roster, champion, or ascend their favorite characters, so they can play with them.

    But for daily players who are grinding rewards, I bet their actual goal (stated or not) is to get or stay competitive. They're hoarding tokens or optimizing stuff and bonusing the best characters to get a stronger roster, not because they're huge fans of Sam Wilson or Juggernaut, but because those guys let them play faster and score better and win more and improve their position relative to everybody else, or (if they're near the top already) to keep pace with everybody else -- and that's an even more powerful motivator.

    If you remove competition, leaderboards, ELO, hopping, etc from the game, it removes all of that. I do all this grinding to improve my roster, for what? The game is a treadmill, and other players are what keeps it moving.

    Did we not establish that most players (not you) are average? I don't think CASUAL players even rank at what you have said.

    You don't think casual players might have a goal of rostering Wolverine to play the game with him?

    They might indeed. But PvP placement rewards aren't going to really help with this. Once you get outside T25 you don't get a 4 star cover (only some shards) and that's 95% of the players. Outside T100 you don't get any HP needed for rostering characters and that's 80% of the players in PvP. Outside T200 you don't even get a Mighty token and outside T200 is 60% of the players in PvP!

    In other words the placement rewards in PvP are a joke if you are wanting to do roster building. Playing hard to place high is just something you do for the sake of doing it (ie a person's enjoyment of that phase of the game), not something you do to grow your roster.

    KGB

  • entrailbucket
    entrailbucket Posts: 6,841 Chairperson of the Boards

    @KGB said:

    @entrailbucket said:

    @DAZ0273 said:

    @entrailbucket said:

    @bbigler said:
    Regarding placement vs grinding for rewards:

    Someone grinds away to get rewards, which isn't fun. Then they use those resources to improve their teams. Then they use their improved teams to grind away for more rewards. The endless loop. The reward for playing the game is playing the game. It's honestly pointless.

    Now if you have a goal to "accomplish" something in the game, that's better, but is that fun? If you're not having fun playing the game, then you're doing it wrong.

    And what might be that goal? What's something somebody might want to accomplish in the game?

    Maybe a more casual player just wants to roster, champion, or ascend their favorite characters, so they can play with them.

    But for daily players who are grinding rewards, I bet their actual goal (stated or not) is to get or stay competitive. They're hoarding tokens or optimizing stuff and bonusing the best characters to get a stronger roster, not because they're huge fans of Sam Wilson or Juggernaut, but because those guys let them play faster and score better and win more and improve their position relative to everybody else, or (if they're near the top already) to keep pace with everybody else -- and that's an even more powerful motivator.

    If you remove competition, leaderboards, ELO, hopping, etc from the game, it removes all of that. I do all this grinding to improve my roster, for what? The game is a treadmill, and other players are what keeps it moving.

    Did we not establish that most players (not you) are average? I don't think CASUAL players even rank at what you have said.

    You don't think casual players might have a goal of rostering Wolverine to play the game with him?

    They might indeed. But PvP placement rewards aren't going to really help with this. Once you get outside T25 you don't get a 4 star cover (only some shards) and that's 95% of the players. Outside T100 you don't get any HP needed for rostering characters and that's 80% of the players in PvP. Outside T200 you don't even get a Mighty token and outside T200 is 60% of the players in PvP!

    In other words the placement rewards in PvP are a joke if you are wanting to do roster building. Playing hard to place high is just something you do for the sake of doing it (ie a person's enjoyment of that phase of the game), not something you do to grow your roster.

    KGB

    We're going to have to agree to disagree about this.

    Changing the game to remove all placement rewards, and removing points/points loss in PvP may be what you actually want, and it may be what other players think they want, but I think if they did this it would make the game very, very boring for a lot of players.

    Why would I continue playing at all if I had no game-related reason to improve my roster? I level up characters, ascend, champion, etc so I can get stronger, so I can do better. I'm not running on the treadmill for its own sake.

  • entrailbucket
    entrailbucket Posts: 6,841 Chairperson of the Boards

    @dianetics said:

    @entrailbucket said:
    Oh absolutely not. How'd you get that from this?

    So you didn't complain about Chasm, SheThor, or other characters you perceived to be overpowered?

    @KGB was saying that devs should make supports offense-only in PvP, because 96% of players don't care about leaderboards, competition, ELO, etc. The result of that would be a "free wins for everybody all the time" mode, that would satisfy the players who just want to quickly "do PvP" for a few wins, but would ruin the competitive metagame (and ultimately, I think, hurt the state of the game pretty badly).

    What does that have to do with Chasm or Thor?

  • KGB
    KGB Posts: 3,648 Chairperson of the Boards
    edited 2 July 2025, 19:32

    @entrailbucket said:

    @KGB said:

    @entrailbucket said:

    @DAZ0273 said:

    @entrailbucket said:

    @bbigler said:
    Regarding placement vs grinding for rewards:

    Someone grinds away to get rewards, which isn't fun. Then they use those resources to improve their teams. Then they use their improved teams to grind away for more rewards. The endless loop. The reward for playing the game is playing the game. It's honestly pointless.

    Now if you have a goal to "accomplish" something in the game, that's better, but is that fun? If you're not having fun playing the game, then you're doing it wrong.

    And what might be that goal? What's something somebody might want to accomplish in the game?

    Maybe a more casual player just wants to roster, champion, or ascend their favorite characters, so they can play with them.

    But for daily players who are grinding rewards, I bet their actual goal (stated or not) is to get or stay competitive. They're hoarding tokens or optimizing stuff and bonusing the best characters to get a stronger roster, not because they're huge fans of Sam Wilson or Juggernaut, but because those guys let them play faster and score better and win more and improve their position relative to everybody else, or (if they're near the top already) to keep pace with everybody else -- and that's an even more powerful motivator.

    If you remove competition, leaderboards, ELO, hopping, etc from the game, it removes all of that. I do all this grinding to improve my roster, for what? The game is a treadmill, and other players are what keeps it moving.

    Did we not establish that most players (not you) are average? I don't think CASUAL players even rank at what you have said.

    You don't think casual players might have a goal of rostering Wolverine to play the game with him?

    They might indeed. But PvP placement rewards aren't going to really help with this. Once you get outside T25 you don't get a 4 star cover (only some shards) and that's 95% of the players. Outside T100 you don't get any HP needed for rostering characters and that's 80% of the players in PvP. Outside T200 you don't even get a Mighty token and outside T200 is 60% of the players in PvP!

    In other words the placement rewards in PvP are a joke if you are wanting to do roster building. Playing hard to place high is just something you do for the sake of doing it (ie a person's enjoyment of that phase of the game), not something you do to grow your roster.

    KGB

    We're going to have to agree to disagree about this.

    Changing the game to remove all placement rewards, and removing points/points loss in PvP may be what you actually want, and it may be what other players think they want, but I think if they did this it would make the game very, very boring for a lot of players.

    Why would I continue playing at all if I had no game-related reason to improve my roster? I level up characters, ascend, champion, etc so I can get stronger, so I can do better. I'm not running on the treadmill for its own sake.

    I didn't say remove placement rewards. I'm fine if they stay. I just said make supports offense only to increase players odds of winning which is something players love while they loathe losing.

    You believe this would ruin the competitive metagame. A metagame you've freely admitted doesn't really exist in a true form since there are chat rooms where players game the system for scores (baking), actively avoid hitting friends / alliance members and collude for who wins the seasons (and the stone reward).

    I say it wouldn't change anything in the competitive metagame in any meaningful way. I'd love for them to run a season trying that out to prove the theory one way or another. Especially the part where I believe it would increase PvP participation.

    KGB

  • entrailbucket
    entrailbucket Posts: 6,841 Chairperson of the Boards

    @KGB said:

    @entrailbucket said:

    @KGB said:

    @entrailbucket said:

    @DAZ0273 said:

    @entrailbucket said:

    @bbigler said:
    Regarding placement vs grinding for rewards:

    Someone grinds away to get rewards, which isn't fun. Then they use those resources to improve their teams. Then they use their improved teams to grind away for more rewards. The endless loop. The reward for playing the game is playing the game. It's honestly pointless.

    Now if you have a goal to "accomplish" something in the game, that's better, but is that fun? If you're not having fun playing the game, then you're doing it wrong.

    And what might be that goal? What's something somebody might want to accomplish in the game?

    Maybe a more casual player just wants to roster, champion, or ascend their favorite characters, so they can play with them.

    But for daily players who are grinding rewards, I bet their actual goal (stated or not) is to get or stay competitive. They're hoarding tokens or optimizing stuff and bonusing the best characters to get a stronger roster, not because they're huge fans of Sam Wilson or Juggernaut, but because those guys let them play faster and score better and win more and improve their position relative to everybody else, or (if they're near the top already) to keep pace with everybody else -- and that's an even more powerful motivator.

    If you remove competition, leaderboards, ELO, hopping, etc from the game, it removes all of that. I do all this grinding to improve my roster, for what? The game is a treadmill, and other players are what keeps it moving.

    Did we not establish that most players (not you) are average? I don't think CASUAL players even rank at what you have said.

    You don't think casual players might have a goal of rostering Wolverine to play the game with him?

    They might indeed. But PvP placement rewards aren't going to really help with this. Once you get outside T25 you don't get a 4 star cover (only some shards) and that's 95% of the players. Outside T100 you don't get any HP needed for rostering characters and that's 80% of the players in PvP. Outside T200 you don't even get a Mighty token and outside T200 is 60% of the players in PvP!

    In other words the placement rewards in PvP are a joke if you are wanting to do roster building. Playing hard to place high is just something you do for the sake of doing it (ie a person's enjoyment of that phase of the game), not something you do to grow your roster.

    KGB

    We're going to have to agree to disagree about this.

    Changing the game to remove all placement rewards, and removing points/points loss in PvP may be what you actually want, and it may be what other players think they want, but I think if they did this it would make the game very, very boring for a lot of players.

    Why would I continue playing at all if I had no game-related reason to improve my roster? I level up characters, ascend, champion, etc so I can get stronger, so I can do better. I'm not running on the treadmill for its own sake.

    I didn't say remove placement rewards. I'm fine if they stay. I just said make supports offense only to increase players odds of winning which is something players love while they loathe losing.

    You believe this would ruin the competitive metagame. A metagame you've freely admitted doesn't really exist in a true form since there are chat rooms where players game the system for scores (baking), actively avoid hitting friends / alliance members and collude for who wins the seasons (and the stone reward).

    I say it wouldn't change anything in the competitive metagame in any meaningful way. I'd love for them to run a season trying that out to prove the theory one way or another. Especially the part where I believe it would increase PvP participation.

    KGB

    This conversation is like 18 levels deep now and even I am lost as to what you're actually advocating for.

    Leaving supports in PvP, but only on offense, will let basically anyone win any match trivially and immediately. I think that's a really big change that messes with a lot of the systems that they currently have in place. You can think that's good, because you don't like that stuff now! I don't agree though.

  • kuntilanak
    kuntilanak Posts: 157 Tile Toppler

    @entrailbucket said:

    @KGB said:

    @entrailbucket said:

    @KGB said:

    @entrailbucket said:

    @DAZ0273 said:

    @entrailbucket said:

    @bbigler said:
    Regarding placement vs grinding for rewards:

    Someone grinds away to get rewards, which isn't fun. Then they use those resources to improve their teams. Then they use their improved teams to grind away for more rewards. The endless loop. The reward for playing the game is playing the game. It's honestly pointless.

    Now if you have a goal to "accomplish" something in the game, that's better, but is that fun? If you're not having fun playing the game, then you're doing it wrong.

    And what might be that goal? What's something somebody might want to accomplish in the game?

    Maybe a more casual player just wants to roster, champion, or ascend their favorite characters, so they can play with them.

    But for daily players who are grinding rewards, I bet their actual goal (stated or not) is to get or stay competitive. They're hoarding tokens or optimizing stuff and bonusing the best characters to get a stronger roster, not because they're huge fans of Sam Wilson or Juggernaut, but because those guys let them play faster and score better and win more and improve their position relative to everybody else, or (if they're near the top already) to keep pace with everybody else -- and that's an even more powerful motivator.

    If you remove competition, leaderboards, ELO, hopping, etc from the game, it removes all of that. I do all this grinding to improve my roster, for what? The game is a treadmill, and other players are what keeps it moving.

    Did we not establish that most players (not you) are average? I don't think CASUAL players even rank at what you have said.

    You don't think casual players might have a goal of rostering Wolverine to play the game with him?

    They might indeed. But PvP placement rewards aren't going to really help with this. Once you get outside T25 you don't get a 4 star cover (only some shards) and that's 95% of the players. Outside T100 you don't get any HP needed for rostering characters and that's 80% of the players in PvP. Outside T200 you don't even get a Mighty token and outside T200 is 60% of the players in PvP!

    In other words the placement rewards in PvP are a joke if you are wanting to do roster building. Playing hard to place high is just something you do for the sake of doing it (ie a person's enjoyment of that phase of the game), not something you do to grow your roster.

    KGB

    We're going to have to agree to disagree about this.

    Changing the game to remove all placement rewards, and removing points/points loss in PvP may be what you actually want, and it may be what other players think they want, but I think if they did this it would make the game very, very boring for a lot of players.

    Why would I continue playing at all if I had no game-related reason to improve my roster? I level up characters, ascend, champion, etc so I can get stronger, so I can do better. I'm not running on the treadmill for its own sake.

    I didn't say remove placement rewards. I'm fine if they stay. I just said make supports offense only to increase players odds of winning which is something players love while they loathe losing.

    You believe this would ruin the competitive metagame. A metagame you've freely admitted doesn't really exist in a true form since there are chat rooms where players game the system for scores (baking), actively avoid hitting friends / alliance members and collude for who wins the seasons (and the stone reward).

    I say it wouldn't change anything in the competitive metagame in any meaningful way. I'd love for them to run a season trying that out to prove the theory one way or another. Especially the part where I believe it would increase PvP participation.

    KGB

    This conversation is like 18 levels deep now and even I am lost as to what you're actually advocating for.

    Leaving supports in PvP, but only on offense, will let basically anyone win any match trivially and immediately. I think that's a really big change that messes with a lot of the systems that they currently have in place. You can think that's good, because you don't like that stuff now! I don't agree though.

    Hmm, I've been doing the win based PVP for a long while now, and only shield once when I'm done 25 win or satisfied with my placement. Rest of the time i don't care who/what hit me. So offense support only in PVP suits my style. Not sure about others, but i never bothered with strategic play time, bracket, shield hop (what's that actually? :D ) and such.

    So, each to their opinion, i guess? This is an open forum. Right? :#

  • Borstock
    Borstock Posts: 2,979 Chairperson of the Boards

    @kuntilanak said:

    @entrailbucket said:

    @KGB said:

    @entrailbucket said:

    @KGB said:

    @entrailbucket said:

    @DAZ0273 said:

    @entrailbucket said:

    @bbigler said:
    Regarding placement vs grinding for rewards:

    Someone grinds away to get rewards, which isn't fun. Then they use those resources to improve their teams. Then they use their improved teams to grind away for more rewards. The endless loop. The reward for playing the game is playing the game. It's honestly pointless.

    Now if you have a goal to "accomplish" something in the game, that's better, but is that fun? If you're not having fun playing the game, then you're doing it wrong.

    And what might be that goal? What's something somebody might want to accomplish in the game?

    Maybe a more casual player just wants to roster, champion, or ascend their favorite characters, so they can play with them.

    But for daily players who are grinding rewards, I bet their actual goal (stated or not) is to get or stay competitive. They're hoarding tokens or optimizing stuff and bonusing the best characters to get a stronger roster, not because they're huge fans of Sam Wilson or Juggernaut, but because those guys let them play faster and score better and win more and improve their position relative to everybody else, or (if they're near the top already) to keep pace with everybody else -- and that's an even more powerful motivator.

    If you remove competition, leaderboards, ELO, hopping, etc from the game, it removes all of that. I do all this grinding to improve my roster, for what? The game is a treadmill, and other players are what keeps it moving.

    Did we not establish that most players (not you) are average? I don't think CASUAL players even rank at what you have said.

    You don't think casual players might have a goal of rostering Wolverine to play the game with him?

    They might indeed. But PvP placement rewards aren't going to really help with this. Once you get outside T25 you don't get a 4 star cover (only some shards) and that's 95% of the players. Outside T100 you don't get any HP needed for rostering characters and that's 80% of the players in PvP. Outside T200 you don't even get a Mighty token and outside T200 is 60% of the players in PvP!

    In other words the placement rewards in PvP are a joke if you are wanting to do roster building. Playing hard to place high is just something you do for the sake of doing it (ie a person's enjoyment of that phase of the game), not something you do to grow your roster.

    KGB

    We're going to have to agree to disagree about this.

    Changing the game to remove all placement rewards, and removing points/points loss in PvP may be what you actually want, and it may be what other players think they want, but I think if they did this it would make the game very, very boring for a lot of players.

    Why would I continue playing at all if I had no game-related reason to improve my roster? I level up characters, ascend, champion, etc so I can get stronger, so I can do better. I'm not running on the treadmill for its own sake.

    I didn't say remove placement rewards. I'm fine if they stay. I just said make supports offense only to increase players odds of winning which is something players love while they loathe losing.

    You believe this would ruin the competitive metagame. A metagame you've freely admitted doesn't really exist in a true form since there are chat rooms where players game the system for scores (baking), actively avoid hitting friends / alliance members and collude for who wins the seasons (and the stone reward).

    I say it wouldn't change anything in the competitive metagame in any meaningful way. I'd love for them to run a season trying that out to prove the theory one way or another. Especially the part where I believe it would increase PvP participation.

    KGB

    This conversation is like 18 levels deep now and even I am lost as to what you're actually advocating for.

    Leaving supports in PvP, but only on offense, will let basically anyone win any match trivially and immediately. I think that's a really big change that messes with a lot of the systems that they currently have in place. You can think that's good, because you don't like that stuff now! I don't agree though.

    Hmm, I've been doing the win based PVP for a long while now, and only shield once when I'm done 25 win or satisfied with my placement. Rest of the time i don't care who/what hit me. So offense support only in PVP suits my style. Not sure about others, but i never bothered with strategic play time, bracket, shield hop (what's that actually? :D ) and such.

    So, each to their opinion, i guess? This is an open forum. Right? :#

    Yes, though the clarification here does help.

  • entrailbucket
    entrailbucket Posts: 6,841 Chairperson of the Boards

    @kuntilanak said:

    @entrailbucket said:

    @KGB said:

    @entrailbucket said:

    @KGB said:

    @entrailbucket said:

    @DAZ0273 said:

    @entrailbucket said:

    @bbigler said:
    Regarding placement vs grinding for rewards:

    Someone grinds away to get rewards, which isn't fun. Then they use those resources to improve their teams. Then they use their improved teams to grind away for more rewards. The endless loop. The reward for playing the game is playing the game. It's honestly pointless.

    Now if you have a goal to "accomplish" something in the game, that's better, but is that fun? If you're not having fun playing the game, then you're doing it wrong.

    And what might be that goal? What's something somebody might want to accomplish in the game?

    Maybe a more casual player just wants to roster, champion, or ascend their favorite characters, so they can play with them.

    But for daily players who are grinding rewards, I bet their actual goal (stated or not) is to get or stay competitive. They're hoarding tokens or optimizing stuff and bonusing the best characters to get a stronger roster, not because they're huge fans of Sam Wilson or Juggernaut, but because those guys let them play faster and score better and win more and improve their position relative to everybody else, or (if they're near the top already) to keep pace with everybody else -- and that's an even more powerful motivator.

    If you remove competition, leaderboards, ELO, hopping, etc from the game, it removes all of that. I do all this grinding to improve my roster, for what? The game is a treadmill, and other players are what keeps it moving.

    Did we not establish that most players (not you) are average? I don't think CASUAL players even rank at what you have said.

    You don't think casual players might have a goal of rostering Wolverine to play the game with him?

    They might indeed. But PvP placement rewards aren't going to really help with this. Once you get outside T25 you don't get a 4 star cover (only some shards) and that's 95% of the players. Outside T100 you don't get any HP needed for rostering characters and that's 80% of the players in PvP. Outside T200 you don't even get a Mighty token and outside T200 is 60% of the players in PvP!

    In other words the placement rewards in PvP are a joke if you are wanting to do roster building. Playing hard to place high is just something you do for the sake of doing it (ie a person's enjoyment of that phase of the game), not something you do to grow your roster.

    KGB

    We're going to have to agree to disagree about this.

    Changing the game to remove all placement rewards, and removing points/points loss in PvP may be what you actually want, and it may be what other players think they want, but I think if they did this it would make the game very, very boring for a lot of players.

    Why would I continue playing at all if I had no game-related reason to improve my roster? I level up characters, ascend, champion, etc so I can get stronger, so I can do better. I'm not running on the treadmill for its own sake.

    I didn't say remove placement rewards. I'm fine if they stay. I just said make supports offense only to increase players odds of winning which is something players love while they loathe losing.

    You believe this would ruin the competitive metagame. A metagame you've freely admitted doesn't really exist in a true form since there are chat rooms where players game the system for scores (baking), actively avoid hitting friends / alliance members and collude for who wins the seasons (and the stone reward).

    I say it wouldn't change anything in the competitive metagame in any meaningful way. I'd love for them to run a season trying that out to prove the theory one way or another. Especially the part where I believe it would increase PvP participation.

    KGB

    This conversation is like 18 levels deep now and even I am lost as to what you're actually advocating for.

    Leaving supports in PvP, but only on offense, will let basically anyone win any match trivially and immediately. I think that's a really big change that messes with a lot of the systems that they currently have in place. You can think that's good, because you don't like that stuff now! I don't agree though.

    Hmm, I've been doing the win based PVP for a long while now, and only shield once when I'm done 25 win or satisfied with my placement. Rest of the time i don't care who/what hit me. So offense support only in PVP suits my style. Not sure about others, but i never bothered with strategic play time, bracket, shield hop (what's that actually? :D ) and such.

    So, each to their opinion, i guess? This is an open forum. Right? :#

    Of course. What happened to "play how you want and don't tell others how they should play?"

  • entrailbucket
    entrailbucket Posts: 6,841 Chairperson of the Boards

    @KGB said:

    @entrailbucket said:

    @DAZ0273 said:

    @entrailbucket said:

    @bbigler said:
    Regarding placement vs grinding for rewards:

    Someone grinds away to get rewards, which isn't fun. Then they use those resources to improve their teams. Then they use their improved teams to grind away for more rewards. The endless loop. The reward for playing the game is playing the game. It's honestly pointless.

    Now if you have a goal to "accomplish" something in the game, that's better, but is that fun? If you're not having fun playing the game, then you're doing it wrong.

    And what might be that goal? What's something somebody might want to accomplish in the game?

    Maybe a more casual player just wants to roster, champion, or ascend their favorite characters, so they can play with them.

    But for daily players who are grinding rewards, I bet their actual goal (stated or not) is to get or stay competitive. They're hoarding tokens or optimizing stuff and bonusing the best characters to get a stronger roster, not because they're huge fans of Sam Wilson or Juggernaut, but because those guys let them play faster and score better and win more and improve their position relative to everybody else, or (if they're near the top already) to keep pace with everybody else -- and that's an even more powerful motivator.

    If you remove competition, leaderboards, ELO, hopping, etc from the game, it removes all of that. I do all this grinding to improve my roster, for what? The game is a treadmill, and other players are what keeps it moving.

    Did we not establish that most players (not you) are average? I don't think CASUAL players even rank at what you have said.

    You don't think casual players might have a goal of rostering Wolverine to play the game with him?

    They might indeed. But PvP placement rewards aren't going to really help with this. Once you get outside T25 you don't get a 4 star cover (only some shards) and that's 95% of the players. Outside T100 you don't get any HP needed for rostering characters and that's 80% of the players in PvP. Outside T200 you don't even get a Mighty token and outside T200 is 60% of the players in PvP!

    In other words the placement rewards in PvP are a joke if you are wanting to do roster building. Playing hard to place high is just something you do for the sake of doing it (ie a person's enjoyment of that phase of the game), not something you do to grow your roster.

    KGB

    Wait.

    @bbigler was talking about players' goals. I said casual players might have a goal of rostering Wolverine to use him in a few matches, but that daily grinders are probably trying to improve their roster to be competitive.

    Where did I say anything about placement rewards helping the casual player? He's not bothering with placement or progression in ANY mode. What on earth are you even talking about? You're making a completely unrelated point, that by the way, I agree with.

  • Daniel2121
    Daniel2121 Posts: 280 Mover and Shaker
    edited 3 July 2025, 01:37

    @KGB said:

    @Daniel2121 said:
    I found the most annoying thing about Leapfrog is sending the supported character Away. I'm fine with the invisibility as it is. Not many ways to counter the Away status however. The main one in my mind is just SHEB (Space Hunter Elsa Bloodstone, or alternatively just 5* Elsa) who just dropped here recently.

    That's interesting because they are only away for 1 turn then they are back and you and resume beating them to death. I much prefer this is what happens.

    The invisibility component is a lot more annoying because if you can't match the tile the character can remain invisible for a very long time doing damage to you while you can't do anything to them (minus AoE).

    TBH, it's a bit surprising the invisible component of Leapfrog hasn't been nerfed before this. Imagine how many newer rosters must be using under covered 4 stars to win the weekly crash with Leapfrog by going invisible on turn 1 and remaining that way until they win.

    KGB

    The Away enemy is Away for 1 turn but upon return, it's their turn, not yours. So they can do anything upon returning from Away status and you can do nothing about that, unless you also have a specific counter to their action like hitting them with anti-air abilities if they go Airborne, etc.

    The invisibility has many counters now, as you yourself mentioned AOE nukes don't care at all about it, everyone running JuggSam/OmegaSam/iHulkoye etc teams don't care about Leapfrog invisibility at all. I run Polaris BRB and have a third character that smashes the board so I just smash the invis tile away, etc. Yeah, it's an annoyance, but it's just that; an annoyance, it's not an "omfg I can't beat this" thing.

  • DAZ0273
    DAZ0273 Posts: 11,321 Chairperson of the Boards

    If you want to encourage players of all types to want to do better in PvP (or even play it) you have to improve the rewards. How many battles do you have to get through for a 3* cover? Quite frankly that needs fixing long before we worry about Supports which lower players are not likely to have or at significant ranks. PvP rewards are so outdated it is ridiculous and yet we have Seasons set around them like they are supposed to be the central point of MPQ.

  • bluewolf
    bluewolf Posts: 6,245 Chairperson of the Boards

    The catch-22 of the current game's economy is we as a player base are spending less than ever, yet the rewards are less meaningful than ever because the game is so diluted that getting a 3* cover or a couple 4s is not even noticeable. Even a full 5 is nothing special once you've got a bunch of the good ones champed.

    Anyway we spend less and say "why can't we get more free stuff from playing the same amount" and the bean counters say "nope, not happening, you need to want stuff so you might spend money".

    And here we are.

  • DAZ0273
    DAZ0273 Posts: 11,321 Chairperson of the Boards

    I wasn't really thinking of things from my perspective - I live with two casual players and so I recently dabbled in some PvP with my wife's account - I randomly joined a PvP and was able to score 1st place for her - her roster is not great and some might say terrible! The next week I did it again. At no point did I get close to needing to score enough points to win the 3* cover. It is literally out of reach at that level without scoring a ridiculous by the standard down there total overkill and there is no need for it to be - SCL rank rewards really need to be re-evaluated at lower levels so that players can reach those rewards through progression without having to slog for what is a third tier reward. 4* covers are actually fairly useless at this level - it is far too bloated a tier to make any progress on unless you get multiples of one cover from say a boss event- the 3* level at least offers an option to build a roster. Both of these casual players have more 5* than they do 2*. You can keep the higher levels at where they are if you want but the lower levels need help.

  • bluewolf
    bluewolf Posts: 6,245 Chairperson of the Boards

    I totally agree but I suspect asking them to customize scores for different SCL’s is a large ask right now.

    It’s funny? Sad? that the 4 tier is so huge that many times a casual/new player doesn’t even want covers for the person in rewards because they can’t roster them.

    Maybe an answer is giving you a free roster slot a week if you’re under a certain level or something. Or everyone gets to pick between a slot or 3 Mighties. Or once a week you get an offer for 300 hp for that choice.

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