@Devs: Ascension balancing support

WhiteBomber
WhiteBomber Posts: 337 Mover and Shaker
edited November 2023 in MPQ General Discussion

Hiya,

With ascension 2.0 now in the hands of many players, we are starting to see who's really worth their weight in time to ascend.

I (and I'm sure many others) are at the point where it might make sense to favorite 1 4star for an extended period to get them to ascension, vs sharing the shard love. However, it takes so crazy long, for someone who doesn't have duplicates already, to ascend a single 4 star, and I can't imagine a worse fate (for me in this game) than investing however many months that will take to ascend them, only for them to be crushed by a nerf.

I get that this is totally hypothetical forecasting, and I have expectations that some should and will be rebalanced (balanced diversity is excellent, and I recall the comment about balancing actually being a thing). I was just wondering if there were any plans to communicate what any of that looks like in advance, since it will take so much longer to get that 4star to 5, than to fully cover a default 5star.

In this scenario, let's say I get Karnak to 5star (max min even), then as soon as I get there after having him favorited for a year straight, his abilities are nerfed a bit too far. I might actually cry real tears of both sadness and rage for that investment of time lost.

Many thanks in advance for any insight!
@DevpoolMPQ_BCS (the only name I know is a dev, apologies if I should have tagged someone else)

Before the forum jumps all over this post, I will also note:

  • This is in no way a complaint, just really hoping for additional info before a massive investment is made
  • I do NOT feel as if I am owed anything (including full answers to my question)
  • I am not asking them stop balancing (regardless of any of my previously posted sadness for the loss of those like Jubes)

Comments

  • entrailbucket
    entrailbucket Posts: 5,797 Chairperson of the Boards

    ...you're not going to get a real answer to this from them, and I'm not sure what sort of answer they could realistically give you anyway, that would give you any comfort.

    They reserve the right to update or change any character at any time, and they always have. They haven't used that right very many times, of course, but there's no way they can say (and mean) "we'll never nerf anybody ever again." There are just too many variables.

    I would caution you against going all-in on any character of any tier. A nerf is always a possibility, and yes, you'd feel bad if you spent all those resources on one guy and he got killed. Build a diverse roster gradually, and don't try to jump straight to the endgame.

  • DevpoolMPQ_BCS
    DevpoolMPQ_BCS ADMINISTRATORS Posts: 136 Tile Toppler

    Nerfs are not something we do often, and we generally try to avoid them altogether. In that regard, I think that you can feel rather safe in your investments. That said, nerfs do happen and when it hits a character that you are invested in, it hurts. We'll always do what must be done to keep the scales at least somewhat in balance, and sometimes that means reducing strength on some characters. When we do though, it isn't a swift thing and we do try and weigh out all of our options first.

  • BriMan2222
    BriMan2222 Posts: 1,274 Chairperson of the Boards
    edited November 2023

    @DevpoolMPQ_BCS said:
    Nerfs are not something we do often, and we generally try to avoid them altogether. In that regard, I think that you can feel rather safe in your investments. That said, nerfs do happen and when it hits a character that you are invested in, it hurts. We'll always do what must be done to keep the scales at least somewhat in balance, and sometimes that means reducing strength on some characters. When we do though, it isn't a swift thing and we do try and weigh out all of our options first.

    @DevpoolMPQ_BCS

    Many of the ascended characters have already been nerfed through. Just off the top of my head, my ghost rider went from doing 200% damage on his black to just 86% and my Peggy Carter went from increasing enemy ap cost by 4 to only 3, and she creates just one countdown tile with her blue instead of the normal 3. There's a whole thread about ascended characters that seem wrong after ascension.

    Since these nerfs weren't announced anywhere the player base had no way of knowing about these nerfs until after we pulled the ascension trigger, and we still aren't sure how many of these changes are on purpose or are possibly bugs.

  • revskip
    revskip Posts: 1,007 Chairperson of the Boards

    @BriMan2222 said:

    @DevpoolMPQ_BCS said:
    Nerfs are not something we do often, and we generally try to avoid them altogether. In that regard, I think that you can feel rather safe in your investments. That said, nerfs do happen and when it hits a character that you are invested in, it hurts. We'll always do what must be done to keep the scales at least somewhat in balance, and sometimes that means reducing strength on some characters. When we do though, it isn't a swift thing and we do try and weigh out all of our options first.

    @DevpoolMPQ_BCS

    Many of the ascended characters have already been nerfed through. Just off the top of my head, my ghost rider went from doing 200% damage on his black to just 86% and my Peggy Carter went from increasing enemy ap cost by 4 to only 3, and she creates just one countdown tile with her blue instead of the normal 3. There's a whole thread about ascended characters that seem wrong after ascension.

    Since these nerfs weren't announced anywhere the player base had no way of knowing about these nerfs until after we pulled the ascension trigger, and we still aren't sure how many of these changes are on purpose or are possibly bugs.

    They weren't nerfed. The 4 * version still works exactly the way it had before ascension.

    The 4* ascended to 5* have gone through "balance testing" for play at the 5* level.

    Whether or not the devs nailed those perfectly is definitely up for debate but just moving every character up in match damage without tweaks to the power sets would lead to real big nerfs down the road when those characters are way out of whack power wise to other characters.

  • BriMan2222
    BriMan2222 Posts: 1,274 Chairperson of the Boards
    edited November 2023

    @revskip said:

    @BriMan2222 said:

    @DevpoolMPQ_BCS said:
    Nerfs are not something we do often, and we generally try to avoid them altogether. In that regard, I think that you can feel rather safe in your investments. That said, nerfs do happen and when it hits a character that you are invested in, it hurts. We'll always do what must be done to keep the scales at least somewhat in balance, and sometimes that means reducing strength on some characters. When we do though, it isn't a swift thing and we do try and weigh out all of our options first.

    @DevpoolMPQ_BCS

    Many of the ascended characters have already been nerfed through. Just off the top of my head, my ghost rider went from doing 200% damage on his black to just 86% and my Peggy Carter went from increasing enemy ap cost by 4 to only 3, and she creates just one countdown tile with her blue instead of the normal 3. There's a whole thread about ascended characters that seem wrong after ascension.

    Since these nerfs weren't announced anywhere the player base had no way of knowing about these nerfs until after we pulled the ascension trigger, and we still aren't sure how many of these changes are on purpose or are possibly bugs.

    They weren't nerfed. The 4 * version still works exactly the way it had before ascension.

    The 4* ascended to 5* have gone through "balance testing" for play at the 5* level.

    Whether or not the devs nailed those perfectly is definitely up for debate but just moving every character up in match damage without tweaks to the power sets would lead to real big nerfs down the road when those characters are way out of whack power wise to other characters.

    We don't know that though. It is very unclear, as evidenced by the other thread and similar discussions on other platforms, how many of these changes were intended, and we have no way to know how/if they will change after being ascended other than waiting for some one else to take the leap.

  • WhiteBomber
    WhiteBomber Posts: 337 Mover and Shaker

    Thank you @DevpoolMPQ_BCS, I appreciate you weighing in, and so quickly. That's enough to feel a bit more comfortable pushing for already released characters.

    @BriMan2222
    I don't know that I personally would count the ones that already changed as a typical nerf, rather an attempt at balancing a character that was never created/intended to be a 5star. Technically you could leave them at 4star with no change (totally get that's less fun though since most 4stars are not really useful, ever). I was more so inquiring about the ones that have already been approved by them and are in the wild. I will start to invest in those, but would not however hold my breathe for someone like Deathlocke or Polaris, just incase they change with their coming ascension.

    @entrailbucket
    That answer was kind of reassuring, at least enough to not be as concerned they are going to drastically change the characters that have already been approved. I totally get the "don't put all of your eggs in one basket" approach. I definitely did not put everything in to any characters prior to this, but for me, my roster just happens to be at a point that it now makes more sense for me to do that here.
    Context: I have all 4 stars covered basically, and roughly half of them championed (highest is only 315). I personally believe that 4stars currently serve no purpose outside of feeders and very weird niche teams that you can use in PVE. I also have enough strong 5 stars to carry me through PVE and PVP, so feeders aren't necessary for me. So, I would rather favorite a 4star with a kit that I think is really fun, and is also strong, to get sooner rather than continue to bounce around many 4stars that are serving me no real purpose, delaying my ascension fun by a multiple of 120 (or however many 4stars there are).

  • DrClever
    DrClever Posts: 584 Critical Contributor

    @entrailbucket said:
    ...you're not going to get a real answer to this from them, and I'm not sure what sort of answer they could realistically give you anyway, that would give you any comfort.

    Definitely this.

    But you can probably help yourself a bit by not chasing a character that seems overpowered - as they are more likely to get a nerf - and going after one that looks like it will be fun to play as whatever the numbers is unlikely any of the fundamental aspects will change - SAPs, countdowns, board shake, whatever will feature.

    Once I'm done with the low hanging ascension fruit I'm planning to favourite a character I just like even if they end up just being used for early round PvE or whatever.

  • entrailbucket
    entrailbucket Posts: 5,797 Chairperson of the Boards

    @DrClever said:

    @entrailbucket said:
    ...you're not going to get a real answer to this from them, and I'm not sure what sort of answer they could realistically give you anyway, that would give you any comfort.

    Definitely this.

    But you can probably help yourself a bit by not chasing a character that seems overpowered - as they are more likely to get a nerf - and going after one that looks like it will be fun to play as whatever the numbers is unlikely any of the fundamental aspects will change - SAPs, countdowns, board shake, whatever will feature.

    Once I'm done with the low hanging ascension fruit I'm planning to favourite a character I just like even if they end up just being used for early round PvE or whatever.

    The other option is to just embrace it. Plenty of players chase and max out the overpowered guys knowing they'll get nerfed, and use them to build up a pile of resources to max out the next broken guy. Then they can ride that guy until he gets nerfed, or obsoleted.

    It's really the middle tier players who get caught -- if you go all in without a backup plan you can end up in big trouble.

  • DrClever
    DrClever Posts: 584 Critical Contributor

    @entrailbucket said:
    The other option is to just embrace it. Plenty of players chase and max out the overpowered guys knowing they'll get nerfed, and use them to build up a pile of resources to max out the next broken guy. Then they can ride that guy until he gets nerfed, or obsoleted.

    I just think ascending a 4*is going to be so time consuming for most that unless you are quite close to being able to do it already then it would be reasonable to assume the nerf will land first.

  • DAZ0273
    DAZ0273 Posts: 10,255 Chairperson of the Boards

    I have exactly 1 dupe 4* and 2 max 4* so I don’t think I will be bothering anybody with this soon. This feels like something years away- I think I have a much greater shot at finishing champing the 5* tier in the same timeframe.

  • MegaBee
    MegaBee Posts: 1,036 Chairperson of the Boards

    @DAZ0273 said:
    I have exactly 1 dupe 4* and 2 max 4* so I don’t think I will be bothering anybody with this soon. This feels like something years away- I think I have a much greater shot at finishing champing the 5* tier in the same timeframe.

    Huh. I thought we were at about the same level roster-wise, and I've ascended several 4-stars.

  • DAZ0273
    DAZ0273 Posts: 10,255 Chairperson of the Boards

    @MegaBee said:

    @DAZ0273 said:
    I have exactly 1 dupe 4* and 2 max 4* so I don’t think I will be bothering anybody with this soon. This feels like something years away- I think I have a much greater shot at finishing champing the 5* tier in the same timeframe.

    Huh. I thought we were at about the same level roster-wise, and I've ascended several 4-stars.

    My 4* are getting there (I now have 2 dupes, lol!) and I have a range who are creeping up to max champ but at a slower rate than I would like but now I am going to be focusing in more on Classics I am hoping it will get me more max champs in the short term. That still leaves building out dupes but that is doable by focusing on the feeder chains (assuming they have one of course).

  • Bowgentle
    Bowgentle Posts: 7,926 Chairperson of the Boards

    @DAZ0273 said:

    @MegaBee said:

    @DAZ0273 said:
    I have exactly 1 dupe 4* and 2 max 4* so I don’t think I will be bothering anybody with this soon. This feels like something years away- I think I have a much greater shot at finishing champing the 5* tier in the same timeframe.

    Huh. I thought we were at about the same level roster-wise, and I've ascended several 4-stars.

    My 4* are getting there (I now have 2 dupes, lol!) and I have a range who are creeping up to max champ but at a slower rate than I would like but now I am going to be focusing in more on Classics I am hoping it will get me more max champs in the short term. That still leaves building out dupes but that is doable by focusing on the feeder chains (assuming they have one of course).

    Until you ascend the 3s.
    I've noticed my fed 4s and 3s have slowed to a crawl without the covers from the 2s and 3s.

  • DAZ0273
    DAZ0273 Posts: 10,255 Chairperson of the Boards

    @Bowgentle said:

    @DAZ0273 said:

    @MegaBee said:

    @DAZ0273 said:
    I have exactly 1 dupe 4* and 2 max 4* so I don’t think I will be bothering anybody with this soon. This feels like something years away- I think I have a much greater shot at finishing champing the 5* tier in the same timeframe.

    Huh. I thought we were at about the same level roster-wise, and I've ascended several 4-stars.

    My 4* are getting there (I now have 2 dupes, lol!) and I have a range who are creeping up to max champ but at a slower rate than I would like but now I am going to be focusing in more on Classics I am hoping it will get me more max champs in the short term. That still leaves building out dupes but that is doable by focusing on the feeder chains (assuming they have one of course).

    Until you ascend the 3s.
    I've noticed my fed 4s and 3s have slowed to a crawl without the covers from the 2s and 3s.

    Yeah good point. So far I only ascended Deadpool and Strange 3's with a bunch of others waiting on the next batch but I am definitely close now to having all the 2s max champed which will then I guess lead to a process of replacing them and a whole new cycle.

    Yikes. I guess I will just see as I go and not let myself get overwhelmed by the whole thing (or eventually just panic and have a breakdown!)

  • Captain_Trips88
    Captain_Trips88 Posts: 268 Mover and Shaker

    You mean this isn’t you having a breakdown already?!?

  • DAZ0273
    DAZ0273 Posts: 10,255 Chairperson of the Boards

    @Captain_Trips88 said:
    You mean this isn’t you having a breakdown already?!?

    Nah, I can get much crazier than this!

  • Captain_Trips88
    Captain_Trips88 Posts: 268 Mover and Shaker

    May God have mercy on us all…

  • ThaRoadWarrior
    ThaRoadWarrior Posts: 9,437 Chairperson of the Boards

    @Bowgentle said:

    @DAZ0273 said:

    @MegaBee said:

    @DAZ0273 said:
    I have exactly 1 dupe 4* and 2 max 4* so I don’t think I will be bothering anybody with this soon. This feels like something years away- I think I have a much greater shot at finishing champing the 5* tier in the same timeframe.

    Huh. I thought we were at about the same level roster-wise, and I've ascended several 4-stars.

    My 4* are getting there (I now have 2 dupes, lol!) and I have a range who are creeping up to max champ but at a slower rate than I would like but now I am going to be focusing in more on Classics I am hoping it will get me more max champs in the short term. That still leaves building out dupes but that is doable by focusing on the feeder chains (assuming they have one of course).

    Until you ascend the 3s.
    I've noticed my fed 4s and 3s have slowed to a crawl without the covers from the 2s and 3s.

    I’ve been curious what this was going to feel like from a. General resource acquisition standpoint over time. Interesting you’re feeling it already.

  • Bowgentle
    Bowgentle Posts: 7,926 Chairperson of the Boards
    edited November 2023

    It's a combination of not getting covers for, say, 3* Thor from his 2* version, AND the 3/1 ratio on ascended 3s.
    Both together makes it an extremely slow process.
    Rewards on the ascended chars are better, of course, but they come in MUCH slower than expected from 3* upwards.
    It feels wrong getting 2 3* covers from PVP rewards, when that doesn't translate into a full level on the ascended 3.
    And the ascended 3* is weaker than their natural 3* version during those mid-300 levels all of them currently are on, thanks to the 3/1 ratio.
    Case in point, the current She-Hulk event where boosted to 433 4* She-Hulk had less health than her maxed, boosted 3* version.
    I don't really like to be punished for using the in-game systems that encourage me to level/ascend my guys.

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