Compensation for Chasm nerf discussion
Comments
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@entrailbucket said:
@jp1 said:
@KGB said:
@entrailbucket said:
Yeah, I will never understand the "no nerfs ever" attitude that a whole bunch of MPQ players seem to have. Every competitive game nerfs. Every. Single. One.I think a lot of this stems from Demi who went WAY over board on every balancing Nerf they ever did. If they had just made minor adjustments until the character was in line, players wouldn't dread Nerfs so much. Demi truly put the NERF in Nerf.
KGB
This.
Also, just because every other game does it doesn’t really mean it’s something you have to agree with, right? It’s actually one of my least favorite aspects of modern gaming. Grinding out for hours to get some rare drop and then it’s magically deemed “OP” and nerfed into complete uselessness. It’s a manipulation tactic. Do you honestly believe another character won’t come along worthy of the town cries about yet another nerf? It won’t be until the cash flow slows down on them that the problem gets addressed. It’s strange isn’t it?
I’m not saying MPQ is particularly egregious with it. I’m just saying it is a common tactic in sales (a field I am in at an upper level where these discussions happen behind closed doors.) it’s just sad it has to trickle down into video games so heavily.
Anyone spending money (or tons of resources) on a single overpowered character gets exactly what they deserve when a brutal nerf shows up.
This game has made clear time and time again that they'll nerf, and nerf HARD, when the situation requires it. Players spent tons of money on Gambit and got burned. After Gambit, how can anyone think going all in is still a good idea? How are players still surprised when this happens?
Players are not in control of the game. The devs make the rules, and the devs can change anybody anytime they want. You cannot "outsmart" the game in the long term, because you are not in charge. I don't understand why some players refuse to learn this lesson, after 10 years. It's Charlie Brown with the football. The first few times it's Lucy's fault, but after that...
I mean, agree to disagree. But I don’t understand how this last paragraph is relevant to what I’m saying. I’m not trying to control the game…I’m putting in my two cents the same as every single person who is calling for the nerf. Is that not trying to “control the game” as well? Also, I already said I didn’t go all in on Chasm. I pull as I go. Maybe I’m misunderstanding you l, but it feels like we are having two different discussions.
1 -
@jp1 said:
@entrailbucket said:
@jp1 said:
@KGB said:
@entrailbucket said:
Yeah, I will never understand the "no nerfs ever" attitude that a whole bunch of MPQ players seem to have. Every competitive game nerfs. Every. Single. One.I think a lot of this stems from Demi who went WAY over board on every balancing Nerf they ever did. If they had just made minor adjustments until the character was in line, players wouldn't dread Nerfs so much. Demi truly put the NERF in Nerf.
KGB
This.
Also, just because every other game does it doesn’t really mean it’s something you have to agree with, right? It’s actually one of my least favorite aspects of modern gaming. Grinding out for hours to get some rare drop and then it’s magically deemed “OP” and nerfed into complete uselessness. It’s a manipulation tactic. Do you honestly believe another character won’t come along worthy of the town cries about yet another nerf? It won’t be until the cash flow slows down on them that the problem gets addressed. It’s strange isn’t it?
I’m not saying MPQ is particularly egregious with it. I’m just saying it is a common tactic in sales (a field I am in at an upper level where these discussions happen behind closed doors.) it’s just sad it has to trickle down into video games so heavily.
Anyone spending money (or tons of resources) on a single overpowered character gets exactly what they deserve when a brutal nerf shows up.
This game has made clear time and time again that they'll nerf, and nerf HARD, when the situation requires it. Players spent tons of money on Gambit and got burned. After Gambit, how can anyone think going all in is still a good idea? How are players still surprised when this happens?
Players are not in control of the game. The devs make the rules, and the devs can change anybody anytime they want. You cannot "outsmart" the game in the long term, because you are not in charge. I don't understand why some players refuse to learn this lesson, after 10 years. It's Charlie Brown with the football. The first few times it's Lucy's fault, but after that...
I mean, agree to disagree. But I don’t understand how this last paragraph is relevant to what I’m saying. I’m not trying to control the game…I’m putting in my two cents the same as every single person who is calling for the nerf. Is that not trying to “control the game” as well? Also, I already said I didn’t go all in on Chasm. I pull as I go. Maybe I’m misunderstanding you l, but it feels like we are having two different discussions.
Your argument was that they're operating some sort of digital pump-and-dump scheme -- release an overpowered character, collect a ton of money from it, then nerf the character and screw the poor players out of all that money, or whatever hoarded resources they spent.
Whether they're doing that or not, I have zero sympathy for players hurt by this, because they should have learned by now that they're not in control of the game -- the developers are.
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@entrailbucket said:
@jp1 said:
@entrailbucket said:
@jp1 said:
@KGB said:
@entrailbucket said:
Yeah, I will never understand the "no nerfs ever" attitude that a whole bunch of MPQ players seem to have. Every competitive game nerfs. Every. Single. One.I think a lot of this stems from Demi who went WAY over board on every balancing Nerf they ever did. If they had just made minor adjustments until the character was in line, players wouldn't dread Nerfs so much. Demi truly put the NERF in Nerf.
KGB
This.
Also, just because every other game does it doesn’t really mean it’s something you have to agree with, right? It’s actually one of my least favorite aspects of modern gaming. Grinding out for hours to get some rare drop and then it’s magically deemed “OP” and nerfed into complete uselessness. It’s a manipulation tactic. Do you honestly believe another character won’t come along worthy of the town cries about yet another nerf? It won’t be until the cash flow slows down on them that the problem gets addressed. It’s strange isn’t it?
I’m not saying MPQ is particularly egregious with it. I’m just saying it is a common tactic in sales (a field I am in at an upper level where these discussions happen behind closed doors.) it’s just sad it has to trickle down into video games so heavily.
Anyone spending money (or tons of resources) on a single overpowered character gets exactly what they deserve when a brutal nerf shows up.
This game has made clear time and time again that they'll nerf, and nerf HARD, when the situation requires it. Players spent tons of money on Gambit and got burned. After Gambit, how can anyone think going all in is still a good idea? How are players still surprised when this happens?
Players are not in control of the game. The devs make the rules, and the devs can change anybody anytime they want. You cannot "outsmart" the game in the long term, because you are not in charge. I don't understand why some players refuse to learn this lesson, after 10 years. It's Charlie Brown with the football. The first few times it's Lucy's fault, but after that...
I mean, agree to disagree. But I don’t understand how this last paragraph is relevant to what I’m saying. I’m not trying to control the game…I’m putting in my two cents the same as every single person who is calling for the nerf. Is that not trying to “control the game” as well? Also, I already said I didn’t go all in on Chasm. I pull as I go. Maybe I’m misunderstanding you l, but it feels like we are having two different discussions.
Your argument was that they're operating some sort of digital pump-and-dump scheme -- release an overpowered character, collect a ton of money from it, then nerf the character and screw the poor players out of all that money, or whatever hoarded resources they spent.
Whether they're doing that or not, I have zero sympathy for players hurt by this, because they should have learned by now that they're not in control of the game -- the developers are.
My argument was that for the game to exist it needs to generate revenue. When you start seeing actual dollars being refunded after a nerf, that’s when I would be willing to entertain a different view.
I’m not making some claim that the game developers are a roster of evil overlords preying on the “poor players”. Nor did I claim they or you should have sympathy for anyone.
I still just don’t think we are having the same conversation. It’s all good man… probably best we just sideline it. No disrespect, I just don’t see anything positive coming of this.
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I don't understand why they would ever refund actual dollars for what are objectively worthless digital goods. Money spent on this game is being flushed directly down the toilet. Anyone who thinks otherwise simply hasn't been paying attention.
...it seems like you're saying a bunch of stuff and then saying that you aren't saying that stuff. If the plan is to keep doing that, then, right, this won't be productive. If you'd like to articulate the actual argument you're actually making, I'm more than happy to engage with that.
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@jp1 said:
@entrailbucket said:
@jp1 said:
@entrailbucket said:
@jp1 said:
@KGB said:
@entrailbucket said:
Yeah, I will never understand the "no nerfs ever" attitude that a whole bunch of MPQ players seem to have. Every competitive game nerfs. Every. Single. One.I think a lot of this stems from Demi who went WAY over board on every balancing Nerf they ever did. If they had just made minor adjustments until the character was in line, players wouldn't dread Nerfs so much. Demi truly put the NERF in Nerf.
KGB
This.
Also, just because every other game does it doesn’t really mean it’s something you have to agree with, right? It’s actually one of my least favorite aspects of modern gaming. Grinding out for hours to get some rare drop and then it’s magically deemed “OP” and nerfed into complete uselessness. It’s a manipulation tactic. Do you honestly believe another character won’t come along worthy of the town cries about yet another nerf? It won’t be until the cash flow slows down on them that the problem gets addressed. It’s strange isn’t it?
I’m not saying MPQ is particularly egregious with it. I’m just saying it is a common tactic in sales (a field I am in at an upper level where these discussions happen behind closed doors.) it’s just sad it has to trickle down into video games so heavily.
Anyone spending money (or tons of resources) on a single overpowered character gets exactly what they deserve when a brutal nerf shows up.
This game has made clear time and time again that they'll nerf, and nerf HARD, when the situation requires it. Players spent tons of money on Gambit and got burned. After Gambit, how can anyone think going all in is still a good idea? How are players still surprised when this happens?
Players are not in control of the game. The devs make the rules, and the devs can change anybody anytime they want. You cannot "outsmart" the game in the long term, because you are not in charge. I don't understand why some players refuse to learn this lesson, after 10 years. It's Charlie Brown with the football. The first few times it's Lucy's fault, but after that...
I mean, agree to disagree. But I don’t understand how this last paragraph is relevant to what I’m saying. I’m not trying to control the game…I’m putting in my two cents the same as every single person who is calling for the nerf. Is that not trying to “control the game” as well? Also, I already said I didn’t go all in on Chasm. I pull as I go. Maybe I’m misunderstanding you l, but it feels like we are having two different discussions.
Your argument was that they're operating some sort of digital pump-and-dump scheme -- release an overpowered character, collect a ton of money from it, then nerf the character and screw the poor players out of all that money, or whatever hoarded resources they spent.
Whether they're doing that or not, I have zero sympathy for players hurt by this, because they should have learned by now that they're not in control of the game -- the developers are.
My argument was that for the game to exist it needs to generate revenue. When you start seeing actual dollars being refunded after a nerf, that’s when I would be willing to entertain a different view.
I’m not making some claim that the game developers are a roster of evil overlords preying on the “poor players”. Nor did I claim they or you should have sympathy for anyone.
I still just don’t think we are having the same conversation. It’s all good man… probably best we just sideline it. No disrespect, I just don’t see anything positive coming of this.
They don't refund dollars. When 5* Gambit was nerfed, the deal was if you sell your Gambit you received a special 5* only token for each cover. I believe this was before Championing was implemented though so that could be alot of tokens for some players
0 -
@Punisher5784 said:
@jp1 said:
@entrailbucket said:
@jp1 said:
@entrailbucket said:
@jp1 said:
@KGB said:
@entrailbucket said:
Yeah, I will never understand the "no nerfs ever" attitude that a whole bunch of MPQ players seem to have. Every competitive game nerfs. Every. Single. One.I think a lot of this stems from Demi who went WAY over board on every balancing Nerf they ever did. If they had just made minor adjustments until the character was in line, players wouldn't dread Nerfs so much. Demi truly put the NERF in Nerf.
KGB
This.
Also, just because every other game does it doesn’t really mean it’s something you have to agree with, right? It’s actually one of my least favorite aspects of modern gaming. Grinding out for hours to get some rare drop and then it’s magically deemed “OP” and nerfed into complete uselessness. It’s a manipulation tactic. Do you honestly believe another character won’t come along worthy of the town cries about yet another nerf? It won’t be until the cash flow slows down on them that the problem gets addressed. It’s strange isn’t it?
I’m not saying MPQ is particularly egregious with it. I’m just saying it is a common tactic in sales (a field I am in at an upper level where these discussions happen behind closed doors.) it’s just sad it has to trickle down into video games so heavily.
Anyone spending money (or tons of resources) on a single overpowered character gets exactly what they deserve when a brutal nerf shows up.
This game has made clear time and time again that they'll nerf, and nerf HARD, when the situation requires it. Players spent tons of money on Gambit and got burned. After Gambit, how can anyone think going all in is still a good idea? How are players still surprised when this happens?
Players are not in control of the game. The devs make the rules, and the devs can change anybody anytime they want. You cannot "outsmart" the game in the long term, because you are not in charge. I don't understand why some players refuse to learn this lesson, after 10 years. It's Charlie Brown with the football. The first few times it's Lucy's fault, but after that...
I mean, agree to disagree. But I don’t understand how this last paragraph is relevant to what I’m saying. I’m not trying to control the game…I’m putting in my two cents the same as every single person who is calling for the nerf. Is that not trying to “control the game” as well? Also, I already said I didn’t go all in on Chasm. I pull as I go. Maybe I’m misunderstanding you l, but it feels like we are having two different discussions.
Your argument was that they're operating some sort of digital pump-and-dump scheme -- release an overpowered character, collect a ton of money from it, then nerf the character and screw the poor players out of all that money, or whatever hoarded resources they spent.
Whether they're doing that or not, I have zero sympathy for players hurt by this, because they should have learned by now that they're not in control of the game -- the developers are.
My argument was that for the game to exist it needs to generate revenue. When you start seeing actual dollars being refunded after a nerf, that’s when I would be willing to entertain a different view.
I’m not making some claim that the game developers are a roster of evil overlords preying on the “poor players”. Nor did I claim they or you should have sympathy for anyone.
I still just don’t think we are having the same conversation. It’s all good man… probably best we just sideline it. No disrespect, I just don’t see anything positive coming of this.
They don't refund dollars. When 5* Gambit was nerfed, the deal was if you sell your Gambit you received a special 5* only token for each cover. I believe this was before Championing was implemented though so that could be alot of tokens for some players
Yeah, I remember. I don’t expect them to refund dollars. I was just making a point. However, the tokens should be for a special store with top tier characters if this is the intended compensation. I wouldn’t sell anyway, but for those who do.
0 -
@Punisher5784 said:
@jp1 said:
@entrailbucket said:
@jp1 said:
@entrailbucket said:
@jp1 said:
@KGB said:
@entrailbucket said:
Yeah, I will never understand the "no nerfs ever" attitude that a whole bunch of MPQ players seem to have. Every competitive game nerfs. Every. Single. One.I think a lot of this stems from Demi who went WAY over board on every balancing Nerf they ever did. If they had just made minor adjustments until the character was in line, players wouldn't dread Nerfs so much. Demi truly put the NERF in Nerf.
KGB
This.
Also, just because every other game does it doesn’t really mean it’s something you have to agree with, right? It’s actually one of my least favorite aspects of modern gaming. Grinding out for hours to get some rare drop and then it’s magically deemed “OP” and nerfed into complete uselessness. It’s a manipulation tactic. Do you honestly believe another character won’t come along worthy of the town cries about yet another nerf? It won’t be until the cash flow slows down on them that the problem gets addressed. It’s strange isn’t it?
I’m not saying MPQ is particularly egregious with it. I’m just saying it is a common tactic in sales (a field I am in at an upper level where these discussions happen behind closed doors.) it’s just sad it has to trickle down into video games so heavily.
Anyone spending money (or tons of resources) on a single overpowered character gets exactly what they deserve when a brutal nerf shows up.
This game has made clear time and time again that they'll nerf, and nerf HARD, when the situation requires it. Players spent tons of money on Gambit and got burned. After Gambit, how can anyone think going all in is still a good idea? How are players still surprised when this happens?
Players are not in control of the game. The devs make the rules, and the devs can change anybody anytime they want. You cannot "outsmart" the game in the long term, because you are not in charge. I don't understand why some players refuse to learn this lesson, after 10 years. It's Charlie Brown with the football. The first few times it's Lucy's fault, but after that...
I mean, agree to disagree. But I don’t understand how this last paragraph is relevant to what I’m saying. I’m not trying to control the game…I’m putting in my two cents the same as every single person who is calling for the nerf. Is that not trying to “control the game” as well? Also, I already said I didn’t go all in on Chasm. I pull as I go. Maybe I’m misunderstanding you l, but it feels like we are having two different discussions.
Your argument was that they're operating some sort of digital pump-and-dump scheme -- release an overpowered character, collect a ton of money from it, then nerf the character and screw the poor players out of all that money, or whatever hoarded resources they spent.
Whether they're doing that or not, I have zero sympathy for players hurt by this, because they should have learned by now that they're not in control of the game -- the developers are.
My argument was that for the game to exist it needs to generate revenue. When you start seeing actual dollars being refunded after a nerf, that’s when I would be willing to entertain a different view.
I’m not making some claim that the game developers are a roster of evil overlords preying on the “poor players”. Nor did I claim they or you should have sympathy for anyone.
I still just don’t think we are having the same conversation. It’s all good man… probably best we just sideline it. No disrespect, I just don’t see anything positive coming of this.
They don't refund dollars. When 5* Gambit was nerfed, the deal was if you sell your Gambit you received a special 5* only token for each cover. I believe this was before Championing was implemented though so that could be alot of tokens for some players
Championing was definitely in place for the Gambit nerf. I am pretty sure it was for OML too.
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"Fair compensation" would be all the rewards those players earned while using Chasm. As long as they're willing to give all of those back, they can compensate for the nerf.
Will they compensate players who didn't use Chasm? Since they're admitting he was an overpowered mistake, it seems like we were unfairly denied rewards that we should have earned.
7 -
@entrailbucket said:
"Fair compensation" would be all the rewards those players earned while using Chasm. As long as they're willing to give all of those back, they can compensate for the nerf.Will they compensate players who didn't use Chasm? Since they're admitting he was an overpowered mistake, it seems like we were unfairly denied rewards that we should have earned.
Wait, what? How does this make any sense? How can you compensate somebody for choosing not to use Chasm? You cannot be suggesting that 5* players who were able to champ him did not? And even if they didn't then why should we care. Why don't we compensate the softcappers for the rewards they might have got if they had chosen not to softcap?
0 -
I just think it's funny that whenever there's a nerf, the players who complain the loudest about "fair compensation" are the ones who've spent months or years using the overpowered character to win everything, at the expense of others who were denied those rewards.
When the devs admit they made a mistake, why is there no compensation for the players who were most impacted for all that time?
9 -
Do you have a specific example in mind here because surely a large swarth of the 5* player base quite obviously had Chasm and used him. Who are these players who deserve compensation because of Chasm being used and impacted? Are you saying that the clogged SHIELD SIM queues are all the result of an elite group of entitled players who somehow gained an advantage despite Chasm not being a purchase only with real cash 5*? I am at a loss trying to understand you with this one.
I also think that @jp1 has been pretty reasonable in his comments and doesn't deserve the level of scrutiny being thrown at them. Just an opinion.
1 -
Well at present all we know is that Chasm is actually getting a buff to his AP drain!
1 -
I'm sure there are plenty of players who didn't use Chasm, or didn't even have him at all, and lost out to those who did. Not everyone has every character championed. I used him a bit when he was boosted, because there was really no choice if you wanted to win a fight, but otherwise he's stayed on the bench.
There obviously won't be any compensation for players who didn't use Chasm, but why wouldn't there be? How does it make sense to give extra compensation to the players who won everything while using a broken character?
3 -
@DAZ0273 said:
@entrailbucket said:
"Fair compensation" would be all the rewards those players earned while using Chasm. As long as they're willing to give all of those back, they can compensate for the nerf.Will they compensate players who didn't use Chasm? Since they're admitting he was an overpowered mistake, it seems like we were unfairly denied rewards that we should have earned.
Wait, what? How does this make any sense? How can you compensate somebody for choosing not to use Chasm? You cannot be suggesting that 5* players who were able to champ him did not? And even if they didn't then why should we care. Why don't we compensate the softcappers for the rewards they might have got if they had chosen not to softcap?
Softcappers don't get compensated because softcapping isn't a mistake made by the developers.
By nerfing Chasm they are admitting that they screwed up and released a character who was way too good. Who should be compensated for that mistake? Surely not the players who took advantage of the broken character to win everything during that time?
0 -
So your argument is that players shouldn't pursue good characters, developers shouldn't make good characters and if they do they should be punished? Do you have a champed Chasm? If not then why not and let us know why we should feel sorry for a player of your level not having this? No offence intended.
I just don't... understand this. I feel that your rant is actually aimed at players who are not in this thread but also quite possibly quit the game circa 2018...and that Chasm is just a placeholder. I guess these are the same guys who will be setting fire to the Devs HQ as per your various previous dire warnings of the ferocious underbelly of MPQ mafia out there ( I hope the save their spreadsheets before igniting their torches).
Sorry - I know the above is flippant and sarcastic and for that I am sorry. I just don't....get it? Maybe that is on me.
0 -
What rant? You're reading things into this that I'm not saying.
The developers made a mistake by releasing a character that was too powerful. They admit that they made a mistake. Who was most impacted by their mistake? Who should be compensated when they fix it?
3 -
I am just reading! But OK.
But...I sort of feel now that we have changed tact and am very confused. You didn't answer my question as to whether you have Chasm (of course you do, how could a player at your level not?) and the poster you have been sticking the boot into has said he is not a whale or anything so who exactly are you railing against?
Excuse any lack of response from here I have to play on the Wii now (yes I still own one!) and not a lack of courtesy.
Chasm is getting buffed/nerfed so I am gonna see how it plays out.
1 -
Of course I have Chasm, and I've used him (although not very much, I only play for fun and I don't find him very fun). I still have no idea where you're seeing booting and rants. You also didn't answer my question. Who was hurt by the developers' mistake?
Anyway, obviously they are not going to compensate players who didn't use Chasm, how would they even do that? And that's to say nothing of the riot it would cause among the entitled 550 players!
But why not? Why shouldn't they be compensating those who were hurt by their mistake, instead of providing further rewards for those who took advantage of it?
1 -
I get what EB is saying and it makes sense to me as an argument. But it’s also purely semantics of course.
I think there is some logic in the argument that when the developers nerf a character because it is overpowered, there are two affected parties:
1) Those who have the character and spent resources on it. They will see that investment devaluated after the nerf. But they also (could have) benefited from the character by playing it and getting a competitive advantage all the time until the nerf happens.
2) those who’s didn’t have the character. They will be positively impacted by the nerf because they won’t face the character anymore. But they also theoretically could have benefited if they didn’t have to face that character so long, or ever at all.
Both groups have pros and cons associated with the nerf, and it is a reasonable argument to me for not having massive compensation for one and not the other.
Ultimately, people will be upset if there are nerfs, and when there aren’t. And people will be upset if there is compensation and when there isn’t. I am of the opinion that money or other resources spent do not guarantee long term benefit. It’s always a risk to spend, because there might be a new meta emerging or a character might get nerfed. So I disagree with Jp1, but I also think their arguments has been made well and respectful, as DA pointed out.
6 -
I think this comes down to what I'm beginning to accept is the fundamental disconnect between me (and, I dunno, maybe a few others) and the larger group of players -- the concept of MPQ as a multiplayer game vs a single-player one.
If MPQ is a single-player game, then when the devs release overpowered characters that is an unequivocally good thing for players. We can defeat enemies faster and easier. We can spend less time playing the game and get better rewards. A nerf would mean compensation for players -- they are taking something away from us.
Meanwhile, if MPQ is a competitive multiplayer game, overpowered characters are a problem. It's zero-sum. A winner necessitates a loser. Anyone not using the overpowered character is instantly at a huge competitive disadvantage. Players who go all in on that character can dominate placement rewards, taking them away from others. They can float without shields longer, win more fights more easily in PvP, and spend less on shields and boosts. Anyone who misses out has to catch up or they'll quickly be left behind.
In this case, a nerf means correcting the initial mistake that the developers made. They've already taken something from us, and given it to other players. The problem is not the fix, the problem is that the character ever existed at all.
I don't understand the players who think this is a single-player game, and I never will. I also imagine they will never understand me.
4
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