Well I'm depressed (Broken combo in Standard)

gozmaster

@Sarah said:

If we are only allowed to post positive things then there won’t be much to talk about at all.
This is the sort of toxic positivity that discourages people from posting on the forums. There is a large and vibrant community surrounding this game and I would like to hear more from them, not less.

So... "JUST" negative stuff on the forums then?

Seems like that's what's been dominant here and I get messaged MANY times by people (in my server) that complain about the negativity on the forums and how toxic it feels (FYI).

And to be fair Sarah, the people that LIKE the powerful cards, aren't making posts here calling for nerfing cards other players like. Sooo....

Something to consider.

gozmaster

Sorry for the response spam, just got caught up on all this, great conversation thanks for facilitating it @Janosik .

ToxicallyPositiveCorporateShill

Janosik

@ambrosio191 said:
and I'm not going to pretend like my opinion is the only one that matters and go around calling things broken because I dont like that style of play.

And yet, here I am, quite clearly stating that I think there *should be a section of the game where broken cards are allowed to run hogwild (it's called Legacy!), > @gozmaster said:

@Janosik , Turn 2? TOO SLOW! lol Here... Turn 1.

https://youtu.be/aHwbJqPoeeY?si=k9MeYpK-FD0tS2Af

You're Welcome.

Yeah nice try mate, you got 1 turn1 win in 8 games, I got 2 in 4 games ^_^

gozmaster

@Janosik said:

Yeah nice try mate, you got 1 turn1 win in 8 games, I got 2 in 4 games ^_^

lol, bows head.

ambrosio191

@Janosik said:

@ambrosio191 said:
and I'm not going to pretend like my opinion is the only one that matters and go around calling things broken because I dont like that style of play.

And yet, here I am, quite clearly stating that I think there *should be a section of the game where broken cards are allowed to run hogwild (it's called Legacy!)

Or put another way, your enjoyment of the game is the only thing that matters, and anyone who doesnt want to play a heavy control deck should only get to enjoy legacy. Standard is only for those who are serious and want to be competitive, and you can only be competitive if you are playing control. It's for the good of the game and community to only release cards that cater to heavy control decks. Anything else is "broken".

Janosik

@ambrosio191 said:

@Janosik said:

@ambrosio191 said:
and I'm not going to pretend like my opinion is the only one that matters and go around calling things broken because I dont like that style of play.

And yet, here I am, quite clearly stating that I think there *should be a section of the game where broken cards are allowed to run hogwild (it's called Legacy!)

Or put another way, your enjoyment of the game is the only thing that matters, and anyone who doesnt want to play a heavy control deck should only get to enjoy legacy. Standard is only for those who are serious and want to be competitive, and you can only be competitive if you are playing control. It's for the good of the game and community to only release cards that cater to heavy control decks. Anything else is "broken".

Do you not see how I'm calling for a game which has spaces for both of us to play the type of game we enjoy, and you want to create a game which only has space for the type of gameplay you enjoy?

Honestly it seems like you're the one who wants to destroy my gameplay experience

ambrosio191

You quoted me saying the only place for combo decks is legacy, how is that space for both? You are essentially saying anyone who likes combo decks should not get to enjoy more than half of this game, including most coalition events, because they are standard events.

This game already caters to all playstyles. You are stating that combo and loop decks should not be in standard. I personally dont enjoy playing combo decks beyond the cursory oh this is cool lets try it once or twice. I'm not advocating against those decks like you did when you started this thread.

I dont enjoy playing or playing against heavy control decks, but some people (like you as stated in the opening post) do. I could just as easily start a thread stating control decks should be confined to legacy since it's needed to beat the raw power of legacy. You will find that I have not created a single thread on this forum complaining about the existence of heavy control cards. I've replied to some voicing my dislike for certain cards, but i dont create threads advocating that other people shouldnt enjoy this game in a different way than me.

The existence of turn 1 win decks does not hinder you from playing the control game you want. You are deciding that because that deck can exist, you have to play it, and everyone else must as well. You are destroying your own gameplay experience.

Janosik

@ambrosio191 said:
You are stating that combo and loop decks should not be in standard.

I'm really not! I'm saying that combo decks that are this fast and consistent should not be in Standard. I didn't feel the urge to post about Wizard Class, did I? I'm also pretty sure I posted once about Song of Creation being acceptable in Standard, too, altho I can't find the post with the search function right now (Song of Creation had a habit of fizzling, and discarded your hand when it did so).

The main difference between this new looping deck and many prior combo decks, and the reason I consider it so worthy of note, is that you had to find the correct cards to get the loop started in the past. This is not true of this deck: pretty much any card in it will start the loop. This makes it way faster than other combo decks in the past.

And it certainly looks like Webcore are going to continue to make new cards for this looping deck! The deck can only get better, with cheaper cards being added to it... perhaps in fewer colors so you won't have to use a 5 color PW with low mana bonuses... and I feel sure we won't have to wait long before you can put 10 cards into the deck which Greg just won't be able to make a bad decision with, that discontinues the loop (like he currently will with Phenomenon Investigators)

And look, I do hear you about recent control cards being too powerful. I feel like I've talked a lot about how Demolition Field, and Desert, and Requisition Raid, and Rakdos are OP. In the previous iteration of Standard, I was very happy playing with Void Rend and Endless Detour, and I really wish that power creep hadn't rendered 1 for 1 control cards like that largely useless in the past year. The most powerful control card I played with in that version of Standard was probably Teferi, Hero of Dominaria, and by today's standards, that card is very slow to set up. Back then, I'd hard cast it for 18 mana, and have to spend at least 3 turns activating it's ultimate. But today, of course, I'd put 2 copies into play for 9 mana by playing Mystical Teachings into Golden Wish (and fill up my PW's loyalty as a little side bonus!)

ambrosio191

I truly dont know all the potential loop decks around, but as I pointed out earlier in this thread, the loop deck you posted requires a colorless PW because there is a mono-color card of each color, 5 Masterpieces each from different sets, and a PMA card. The colorless PW alone limits it to events that allow all colors, and the Masterpieces require substantial investment into this game. You can argue whether rarity is a legitimate aspect to take into consideration, but the reality is most people are not going to have 5 specific masterpieces across 5 sets spanning at least a year and a half now. Those that do deserve to enjoy the fruits of their labor, either through time and/or money.

Honestly, how often is the average person facing a deck like that? How is that deck hindering the vast majority of people? Between greg's inability to make the correct choices while playing it, and those mentioned restrictions, I know I've never faced it, or anything like it.

Even the one gozmaster posted can only be done with Sarkhan 3 due to the mono-colored cards in it, or a colorless PW in non color restricted events. It also requires 3 masterpieces across 3 sets spanning 2+ years.

I would argue control cards do far more to hamper people's enjoyment because their very nature is to stop you from doing something. Greg doesnt have to make the right choice with those, he just has to play them whenever able. As much as I hate playing against them, and the people in my discord can attest to how much I've ranted lately, I would never say they all need to be nerfed. There are answers to all of them, I just choose not to include them because I dont want to dedicated 3-4 slots in my deck to essentially play control. Yes, I lose more than I have to, but playing what I want is far more enjoyable than being forced to play control to counteract other control.