Mystical Teachings

Janosik

So... are we all just going to pretend that cards like this aren't going to be a problem in Standard?

gozmaster

it's strong. VERY Strong.

It's fine.

Greg has no idea how to pilot it.

gozmaster

We had a STELLAR conversation on this in My discord if anyone else would like to chime in. Thanks for the discourse @Janosik , and my final thoughts on it were, that it's just too early to say it's a problem, just yet.

In a couple months (Maybe the next set drop?) we'll have a much better idea of it's full impact, but I feel it's WAY too early to have that conversation of nerf now.

Especially with it's rarity level making VERY tough to get.

But again, in a several weeks, we may be looking back at this and saying Jano was right...

And if that's that case, nerf away... But for now.... We're just too early.

And for what it's worth...

I AM noticing a LOT of fairly cheap... "Free card" MPs in the meta... now... I LIKE that.

But as Shteev would point out... too many, and you got a broken meta....

And I'm inclined to agree IF greg can pilot them to the same effect as the player.

But to date... That's just REALLY hard for greg to do.

Janosik

Boy oh boy am I getting bored of casting this card over and over again

FCLedZep

I don’t like cards and planeswalkers being nerfed. I don’t mind playing with powerful cards and planeswalkers certainly in a game where on average every player wins 90 % of the games. A lot of people wanted Grist to be nerfed but in the current meta Grist is no big of a deal and can easily be countered by Kaya, Orzhov Usurper. Mystical Teachings is strong but I don’t think it’s a big deal either.

naabaldan

I love this card.

gozmaster

MY .... CARD!

Janosik

@naabaldan said:
I love this card.

Of course you do... you cast on on turn 1 or 2 and you've won the game...

naabaldan

Not every time of course

naabaldan

But this is also true for grist/rakdos
and lots of other combos in the past present and future

There are always cards that are able to stop or slow down those powerful ones.

naabaldan

I forgot to mention Greg's inability to be smart most of the time having a 5 match neglected and doing a 3 loyalty match or even a -2 color match to steal our best colored match in a diabolical manner.
He lost his possible smarts by rolling a dice and making the worst choice most of the times. Only the god of cascades will help him occasionally.

Roll the dice and choose
1 be smart
2-6 don't be smart

Tremayne

Since mystical teachings (MT) is a masterpiece I haven’t played against it - I think (It might have been in a deck, but never gotten played). So I have no beef with this card - time will tell if I will get it.

1. Looking at the card text (this is a caveat since we are accustomed to cards that says one thing and does something completely different ), MT sure has the potential to get on the Sh@#-list of the player base.
   If you have MT, just add it plus one or two completely over the top spells to you deck and let the thunder rain down on your opponent.
   If @Janosik is right and you cast MT in turn 1 or 2, then claiming there are counter cards is simply trolling.
   We have seen it numerous times, Combo-decks that wreaked havoc on the game and stopped the game being fun for everyone else but a few diehard “hasit”.

2. Again we see the classic argument, card XYZ is not overpowered “because Greg can’t pilot it”. That is as usual an extremely lame argument. I claim that a key problem is “GREG being soooo stupid”.
   In order for this game to be interesting for the player base, I predict a significant change needed is for Greg to start being competent.
   The problem is, if Greg becomes competent, then these over the top cards will kill the fun instantly, so the OP-cards is poison for the longevity of this game. Just look at what happened when Oktagon tried making Greg competent. The player base went berserk (mainly because Oktagon didn’t announce that change, so many got blindsided - myself included).
   It follows, if Greg is to become competent, then the prizes has to change. It simply isn’t going to appeal to anyone to loose 3 points and end up getting 10 golds and 3k runes.

3. Another thing that hurts the longevity is the impact OP-cards have on new players. I expect that new players are leaving MTGPQ, when they are exposed to OP-combo deck too soon. Imagine that you are starting to dip your toe into the PVP side of this game and encountering a series of ridiculously OP decks - MT being one of such cards. As it is today, the solution is either to suck it up the next 1-2 years, pay a torrent of money or simply find a different app with a better play-experience. I fear too many chooses the last solution.

4. MT is yet another example of power creep, that WebCore has introduced. I simply can’t see how WebCore can continue it. Sure I can see it is possible for a few more sets. However, I expect the game stops being fun, if every PW and every MP has to be wilder than the old ones. Perhaps WebCore can win some time by making Greg dumber, but I don’t see how and still retain a semblance of a worthwhile game. Perhaps you can.

5. I get the proponents of MT and similar cards don’t want to hear my points. Maybe because you have already lined up the next mobile game, so you don’t care if MTGPQ lives or dies. Regardless WebCore needs to make the game more appealing to new players, probably at the expense of the old timers who stuck it out or payed up (see #3).

Janosik

@gozmaster said:
Greg has no idea how to pilot it.

This is, of course, only part of the problem. If Greg can routinely use a card to destroy his opponents without giving them a chance to do anything, then people get annoyed, and maybe some think about quitting, and maybe nerfs are called for.

But It's not the whole story, is it? You'd never print a card which cost 3 mana and said "You win the game instantly. Only human players can play this card'. I mean.... would you?

MT isn't that card, but it's pretty close to an I WIN button. Being allowed to play a second copy of Golden Wish or Tempt with Discovery in your deck, and one that costs just 9 mana to boot, is just silly. Oh and hey! It doubles as a total one-sided board sweep, too, just in case Greg ever gets the chance to make a foothold in the game!

I thought you wanted the game to be a challenge, Goz? That's what you seemed to be suggesting when we talked about nerfing Grist: It's GOOD that Greg can be powerful! But where's the challenge in us, the humans, playing MT as often as we can? I'm far from the only player who's thrown Kylox's Voltstrider or Chimil in my deck and just end up casting an endless stream of them. It's good that Greg isn't doing this routinely to less experienced players because he is dumb, but good god I am bored.

soultwist

Hey, on the bright side most people won't have it since they are not making the elite packs available!

gozmaster

@Janosik said:

Of course you do... you cast on on turn 1 or 2 and you've won the game...

Yeah? I don't get your point?

I thought you wanted the game to be a challenge, Goz?

Oh I do enjoy a good challenge.... when I'm not pressed for time or if I'm just looking to scoop reward farming during my work day. On those days, when i have a minute to play, I brew with alt win cons, mono-color walkers, steal yo gurl, Snag-N-Sac, spell less builds, etc...

I play plenty of decks that don't win turn 2. Especially during objectives in weekend events, but for all those things that I just want to swap and say GG? There's MT.

@Tremayne said:

If you have MT, just add it plus one or two completely over the top spells to you deck and let the thunder rain down on your opponent.

True, however, we all know that greg prioritizes creatures and supports over spells, so ... if you're limiting your deck builds to a max of... say 3 spells, 1 of which is MT, the odds of him casting it , and casting it early , are VERY slim, especially considering that the rest of your deck has to be 3 creatures (typical) and 4 supports, thus giving you a 70%+ chance that whatever greg has in hand will be a higher casting priority than any spell...

Further... I'm assuming the spell greg will cast will typically be a bigger casting cost spell, which will slow him down (barring any monster-gem cascades) and THEN we have to trust greg to make the right choice on which card he's selecting from his 2 options, which we all know... he typically doesn't...

... So yeah, haven't been powned by this card in events, but maybe you're right... it's an MP, so maybe it just doesn't have meta saturation enough to fully see the impact, or... maybe... just maybe... greg is an idiot who will rarely get it right.... We'll see.

The problem is, if Greg becomes competent, then these over the top cards will kill the fun instantly,

Frankly @Tremayne , There are TOO many "if"s in that sentence.... First off, i would LOVE for the AI to git gud... I think a stronger robot-opponent would be an amazing up-level to the quality of the game... And THEN yes, you're right these cards MAY be too op for the casual player to want to face in Quick Battles, but especially in coalition events, might need to take a look at them at that point...

But again... greg ain't smaht and doesn't look to be getting smahter, thus, we're still playing solitaire... so... let me play solitaire the way I want (with MT in my deck), and you enjoy the game your way with what you put in your deck... Cause greg aint outthinking us anytime soon,

It's good that Greg isn't doing this routinely to less experienced players because he is dumb, but good god I am bored.

Um... @Janosik , then take the card out of your deck... Cause... I'm not bored lol. Again, solitaire. Play a way that makes it more challenging for you if you want, like I listed above... but uh... leave my cards and my decks alone. I enjoy my play style, go play yours.

One final point, MT is good for newer players.

Yes, it's VERY strong, not going to argue that, but that's WHY it should be left alone (I made this SAME argument in favor of leaving Wizard Class untouched while it was in standard) ...

So... this is an MP, hard for most folks to get, but if they follow my F2P approach to getting all STD cards for new players (Details in my discord) you end up getting most if not all the key cards in STD before they rotate into legacy...

... So my point, these cards are CRITICAL to give newer players a chance to be able to compete in legacy events, they are MUCH more likely to get this UBER powered card, then they will pull the engine to Omni in the next few months.

So , let them have their op card, and let them survive the harsh wilderness that is legacy play, or are we saying we only want the power to be in the hands of the vets? Cause that, to me is very unfair.

Respectfully of course you two... appreciate your thoughts on the matter. But I'm firm in the camp, leave my toys be... Let the noobs have fun too.

GM.

Tremayne

@gozmaster - firstly, there is only one “if” in that statement. How many “if”s are you seeing?
Secondly, if I understand you correctly, there must be power creep in order to curb the power creep. That makes no sense to me.
Thirdly, Are you saying that the same argument for WC can be used to justify MT, how on earth can that be, when WC is an uncommon and MT is a MP? Please walk me through that.
Fourth (and final), Are you seeing hundreds or thousands of new players in your discord? Because just finding the forums seems to be difficult for the average player. So how plausible is it to expect them to learn your tricks and not just walk away instead?

Sarah

I want to make sure that I’m understanding this correctly: MT is very OP but that’s OK because it’s a masterpiece and very few people have it and also it’s good for new players. Do new players typically get a lot of masterpieces?

Question: was this one of the cards given to content creators as a promotion? Are they contractually obligated to try and sell us on this card?

gozmaster

Sigh... Ah I wondered when you'd chime in here @Sarahschmara ...

TO answer your questions...

@Sarah said:
Do new players typically get a lot of masterpieces?

1. As a matter of fact, they can, I outline a full F2P approach to getting ALL Standard cards with a few key resource management approaches in my server (Discord linked below) , and although it can take a few months to get a SLEW of Mythics/MPs, I outline how noobs can DRAMATICALLY improve their chances of pulling an M/MP from every set drop. VERY handy.

Question: was this one of the cards given to content creators as a promotion?

2.No.It was not given to us, we had to pull it like everyone else, but I have a very methodical approach to getting all cards from each set (As I mentioned above), so I always get all the newest cards in less than 30 days (In my main/paid account).... But pulled this bad boy day one, lol. (MY CARD!)

Are they contractually obligated to try and sell us on this card?

3. (insert eyeroll here) I never sell cards to the players unless I'm a firm believer in the card/walker, for example you RARELY see me do promos or spotlights on paid exclusive cards, because most of them (to me) aren't worth the money. I only do reviews on cards I think are BADASS and fun or underrated. I do ALL walkers (Mostly) because people want as early a review before they spend their hard earned cash/in game resources.

4. "Sell you on it"? Did you read it? It's dope, that should do all the selling you need to want it. lol

FINAL COMMENT: AT NO POINT... are we (the content creators) "expected" to sell anything we get in our sponsorship from WC.... There have been MANY times I've bashed the walker/card as poor value.

I (And the other CCs) have been adamant about being honest in our reviews, and often warn them to brace themselves for the firm finger-wagging we give them in advance, to which the ALWAYS reply, if it's an honest and fair review, that's all they ask.... Bottom line, If it sucks, I say so.

So please Sarah, as a professional courtesy please... stop implying the CCs are in some nefarious fracking operation with the decs, trying to weasel every nickel we can from the player base... Because... sigh... we're not...

ANY person that has seen, and trusts my content knows... My first dedication is to the player base, and I'd produce the EXACT same content, sponsorship or no, to help the community get an honest assessment on strength, fun, impact of cards/walkers in the meta. To imply ANYTHING else is silly, and not a very good look for a leader of your caliber.

You're better than that.

Anywho... Hope this settles your concerns of our master plot to force all people to buy MT.

But it is awesome, and hope everyone gets a chance to play with it.

All the best Sarah...

GM

Janosik

@gozmaster said:
I play plenty of decks that don't win turn 2. Especially during objectives in weekend events, but for all those things that I just want to swap and say GG? There's MT.

@gozmaster said:
Yes, it's VERY strong, not going to argue that, but that's WHY it should be left alone

Well. 'I agree the game is unbalanced, and also it should be' is quite the hot take!

@gozmaster said:
we're still playing solitaire... so... let me play solitaire the way I want (with MT in my deck), and you enjoy the game your way with what you put in your deck... Cause greg aint outthinking us anytime soon

You often go back to this solitaire comparison, but there are solitaires, and there are solitaires. Clock Solitaire is a zero skill game, for example. Is that what we want MTGPQ to be? Just another zero skill idle gatcha game? Mobile gaming is awash with those already.

If you'd like to try a solitaire game that requires a lot of skill, might I recommend Caprice, or Double Wasp, or Penguin! That's the type of solitaire-like play that I'm here for, and, at it's best, MTGPQ *is* capable of providing that experience, despite how awful Greg is at playing.

I get it, Goz. You're not a competitive player... you're a sandbox player. In the parlance of MTG player demographics, you're a Timmy, or a Johnny, or maybe both, but you're not a Spike. I'm a Spike... and I'm far from the only one!

MTG is a broad church that appeals to many different types of players... it wouldn't be as successful and it wouldn't make as much money if it didn't. I think we underestimate the appeal of competitive play in MTGPQ at our peril; Personally, I don't think that the game would have survived this long without the strong communities that formed around coalitions and competitive play in it's early years. Think of how much money WOTC spend organising competitive play for paper MTG, from Friday Night Magic to the Pro Tour. They know it's good for business.

Here's *my* hot take: I think we'll lose more Spike players if the game is unbalanced like you want it to be, than we will Timmy and Johnnies if the game is balanced like I want it to be. Timmys and Johnnies can still have lots of fun with a balanced game: paper MTG is proof of this! There's still plenty of opportunity for those players to draw 1,000,000 cards or create a 108496/108496 creature in MTGPQ, especially against an opponent as bad as Greg! But you can't wreck competitive play and expect the competitive players to carry on as normal.

Tell competitive players that they're playing the game wrong and they should stop playing competitively, and what they'll do is stop playing at all, and go find a different game to spend their time and money on.

Personally, I don't even mind too much that Legacy is a broken combo swamp (it certainly saves me time on the daily grind, as you've noted yourself!) but let's not let Standard just be Legacy 2.0.

naabaldan

@Tremayne
Improving Greg to a competent and challenging opponent will let you lose lots of matches. There was a stronger version of him. If one loses most of the time he gets frustrated and stops playing.

Maybe they implement a special quick battle mode with a smart Greg or allow us to adjust his genius to earn much better rewards?

Would be some work to do and may or may not include cheating.

Tremayne

@naabaldan - you are right. A competent Greg will mean more losses. Is that a bad thing? With the current prize model, it sure is! Note, I’m not excluding the idea of a new and improved prize model with my desire for a competent Greg, I’m actually expecting it.

A main reason for my desire to improve Greg follows my experience, historically and current.
I’m guessing but I’d say that right now I’m winning 98% of my matches.

That is impressive, if I meticulously designed every deck I play with. However, I do not design my deck in something like 50% to 66% of the matches I play.

Mainly, I’m just choosing cards that need mastering with a spread of 4/3/3 (or some variation). Maybe the chosen cards are fulfilling some of the objectives, but not always and I win overwhelmingly anyway.

Currently the game is too easy if you have the cards (my experience) and way too hard if you don’t (or so I’m led to believe by the comments here and elsewhere). Maybe that is what WebCore wants but I doubt it.