Can we please nerf Lilian of the Veil?

Youzerfriendly

Her L3 ability is BEYOND overpowered to the point where it's virtually impossible to come back from. There's no defense, there's no counter, it's just ridiculous.

It puts down four of her Veil supports, then proceeds to virtually wipe the board, targeting your most valuable cards, setting you back as far as possible. Then, the ensuing cascade of conversion that happens inevitably fills her whole hand with mana, and while she can't refill loyalty from those initial conversions, the ensuing full hand of mana, which are inevitably full of discard cards because that's how her deck is equipped, begin a second round cascade of black and loyalty gems that fill her loyalty up so that next round, it can all happen again. But this time, you're taking even MORE damage and MORE conversion is happening because the support has even MORE shield this time! Oh, and don't forget about the discard so that card in your hand that you're charging muted to maybe defend yourself in the ONE turn in between gets discarded too.

You want to stop loops? Do something about this unholy abomination that just feeds itself over and over again. It's not fun, it's unstoppable and it ruins events and objectives.

Please.

Mainloop25

I support.

madwren

Yeah, that ultimate is one I fear the most. Her abilities are so recursive and self-sustaining that it's ridiculous.

Keyler

I completely agree, not only the last ability but the second one also makes a deck built for discard (which is what you are going to play with because otherwise you would be using another PW), starts generating so much mana and loyalty that the next turn it can cast the skill again and start the loop with more damage and conversion each time. I think she needs a rework to be functional and fun to play but not something ridiculous to go against where you have to beat before she reaches her second ability, which GREG can do in a couple of turns if has a good gem cascades turn. And obviously her 3rd ability its extremely broken.

Tremayne

I’m not sure I agree with a nerf. Depends upon what the changes are.

There are a lot of PW who wins consistently, if Greg gets a super cascade and I do not get a similar cascade with a good hand of cards.

I feel the problem expressed with Liliana of the veil here, is tired to the fundamental problem of MTGPQ, that to get top prize you need a 100% score. MTGPQ needs to change this requirement. How is the question.

Fireguy

I do not agree with this idea. Liliana of the Veil is one of the scary walkers to face, yes, but you always know which PW you are playing against. Players simply do not sideboard well enough against her. If you're going into a real life battle you must consider your opponent, and PQ is no different. Bring heavy support removal. Even if she uses her 3rd you likely have a good chance to destroy her veil tokens - if you sideboard well enough.

Please keep Liliana of the Veil as she is. Her loyalty costs are already extremely expensive and her mana gains aren't that great. She has enough downsides to offset her upsides. If you nerf you'll have half of the community raising pitchforks.

If anything needs a nerf it's Dakkon's first ability 🫢

akira1

I agree somewhat. A wider rebalancing of PWs would be welcomed by me. Making the OG/starter PWs more playable, like increasing their mana bonuses, would be great. As it is, there’s no reason to use or level them. Newbies should just grind for 300 gold crystals and buy a better mono walker rather than waste time and runes leveling the starter walkers.

Liliana of the Veil is just one of the really strong walkers that could use a debuff. If she gets nerfed then others like Dakkon, PMA Ajani, Wrenn and Realmbreaker, and Ral should get the nerf stick too. It’s no fun when you see the same walkers in all of the events. I’d love it if all walkers were viable but understand there’ll always be most popular or most effective

Skurwyknator

I can't imagine PW that deserve nerfing more than Liliana.

I think @Fireguy is forgetting that it's not enough to win in this game, we have objectives to achieve throughout tournaments especially in coalition events, it's really no difference between losing and missing an objective, your perfect score is ruined and you are toasted.

So yeah, I can build my deck keeping in mind which PW I'm facing but at the same time I need to prolong the game as long as I get my homework done and that's where the fun ends

Abracadavers

I would just like to add that Liliana is very difficult to face on a node that has a challenge to fill your graveyard. But saying that, I would hope that if any change is made to her, that it is as small a change as possible (keeping in mind all that has been said in this thread).

TIMEWARP

I don't agree. I think she's powerful, but not broken.
As with most cries for nerfing, it is important to consider all aspects of a planeswalker. To start, shes mono colored and therefore misses acces to a wide selection of cards. Black is super bad at removing supports for instance. Use that to your advantage. Also, Lillly9/LotV is kinda squishy. Her emblems can be removed by a wide selection of cards, and buried creatures are pretty good against her (looking at you Cityscape Leveler). Preventing her form gaining loyalty is also valid (Volatile Arsonist)

She does indeed require some sideboarding/prep when facing her, but that's part of the game... it's called PuzzleQuest, not BrainOnHolidayQuest.

Magic:PQ Support Team

Altering cards that are not bugged is a delicate thing so of course I'll not come here saying we definitely will/will not do it.
But it's definitely great to hear your points on this and any other topic of this sort. I'm bringing Lili's case to the rest of the team so we can analyse it and keep an eye on it.

Lu

akira1

@Magic:PQ Support Team said:
Altering cards that are not bugged is a delicate thing so of course I'll not come here saying we definitely will/will not do it.
But it's definitely great to hear your points on this and any other topic of this sort. I'm bringing Lili's case to the rest of the team so we can analyse it and keep an eye on it.

Lu

Thanks! I’m not exactly sure what a debuff to Liliana of the Veil would look like. But, easy debuff to other overused walkers, for me, would be:

-Dakkon: 1st loyalty ability; granted effects are half of the number of gems on the board (like the debuff to Bladecoil Serpent). So, gain loyalty equal to half of the number of blue gems on the board, rounded down/up, gain life equal to half of the white gems on the board m, rounded down/up, and deal damage equal to half of the black gems on the board, rounded down/up.
-PMA Ajani; increase the loyalty costs of his abilities to 8/12/16. They are very cheap right now and with how overpowered White cards are, in addition to Ajani’s +7 white match, and his passive ability, makes for an easy pick for a white walker.
-Ral: put a cap or numerical limit on his ultimate. Narset of the ancient Way and one of the Chandra’s have a similar ultimate about casting cards and dealing damage to a target. The only difference is they have a limit (this effect can only occur x times per turn). Ral’s ultimate has no limit so I have no reason to use Narset or Chandra. Easy fix to balance the walkers.

Magic:PQ Support Team

Oooh, you brought the big bad guys, @akira1!
The details are nice, though. Thanks!

Lu

TIMEWARP

All 3 walkers you mentioned have several severe weaknesses, and complaining that these are overpowered is a sure sign you need to reevaluate your strategy when facing them.
Dakkon quickly dies to a good Lilliana of the Veil deck, Pajani is helpless in Gregs hands when you play Sleep with the Fishes and Sigarda's Imprisonment, and Ral is not an issue in Standard. In legacy he folds to Test of Talents, hexproof stuff and and anything that prevents draw (Narset vg).

I challenge you to challenge yourself, instead of screaming shenanigans

akira1

@TIMEWARP said:
All 3 walkers you mentioned have several severe weaknesses, and complaining that these are overpowered is a sure sign you need to reevaluate your strategy when facing them.
Dakkon quickly dies to a good Lilliana of the Veil deck, Pajani is helpless in Gregs hands when you play Sleep with the Fishes and Sigarda's Imprisonment, and Ral is not an issue in Standard. In legacy he folds to Test of Talents, hexproof stuff and and anything that prevents draw (Narset vg).

I challenge you to challenge yourself, instead of screaming shenanigans

Cool story bro. Go to any standard event and all you see are Dakkon, PMA Ajani, and Ral walkers, with a few others commonly used, including Liliana of the Veil. Sarkkan is commonly used as is Teferi Iconoclast but their loyalty abilities are fine in my book. The point of a debuff or nerf is to make other walkers viable. Wrenn and realmbreaker will be among the most used shortly as well and her ultimate is broken. I don’t have an easy solution for fixing that but she will eliminate all other Green walkers which is a terrible outcome when half of the game is about using plane walkers.

Mainloop25

Here's my nerf proposal: Take her out of the pool of possible opponents in ranked events. That way everyone is happy 😁

Killroy

I guess everyone forgets that before her initial release, her loyalties were slightly cheaper. This PW needs no re-balancing, just players to to re-evaluate their approach and sideboard accordingly. However, my only complaint, is locked pw's to a node, please look into that, and you'll find your balance.

Mainloop25

Maybe everyone is forgetting because it doesn't matter at this point? All that's saying is that she could be worse than she already is?

Most of the time yes, you can switch to another Planeswalker. But what about in Revolving Planeswalk where you're locked to a node? And you don't even get to see who you'll face until after you've already done so? (That should be changed too, but that's for a different thread).

My overall point is that you have to build to stop her from her abilities running you over. You have to do that way more for her than any other walker, even Dakkon. She's the only Planeswalker that you have to worry about that with. Doesn't matter how much you're dominating the match. No other walker makes you at the mercy of RNG like she does. Which I think is what the argument for a nerf actually boils down to.

Machine

Liliana doesn't need a nerf. She needs to be approached with care and almost always requires side boarding and maybe even a switch of planeswalker. Other walkers also have the mercy RNG attached to them, like Koth. His first also has the ability to sustain itself up to the point that he can cast his entire hand in a single turn.

I agree that she's scary, but as already mentioned by several other players, she also has major setbacks; low health, bad mana gains, high cost abilities, and... you can almost always expect what cards you will be up against. Use this knowledge to your advantage and you will trash her 9 out of 10 times.

khurram

@Magic:PQ Support Team said:
Oooh, you brought the big bad guys, @akira1!
The details are nice, though. Thanks!

Lu

I'd urge you to please also keep in mind that one vocal guy does not represent the desires of the broader community.

Enigma

I really enjoy playing Liliana of the Veil, especially when faced against an opponent playing a deck of all mythics that quickly overpowers any of the cards I'm playing with. Nothing more satisfying than facing 3 big creatures and a board full of supports, then getting that third loyalty star and board wiping. Well, maybe more satisfying is watching Dakkon or Wren punch themselves in the face until self destruct. Or fully charging loyalty and a grip of cards when it isn't even your turn.

Yeah it can suck to be on the other side of all that, but there are solutions. Mirror matches generally play well, as does anything that makes Greg discard, and heavy support removal is key. RDW is another solution... make the board go boom and burn Greg fast. Any decks with heavy conversion rates regardless of color will likely keep Liliana's loyalty support level down. It's a challenge... but if they haven't nerf'd Ajani (there was a slight readjustment made with that Planeswalker though, if I remember right), they shouldn't nerf Liliana