Discussion on Polaris in the meta

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System
System Posts: 1,026 Chairperson of the Boards
This discussion was created from comments split from: New Character - **** Silver Samurai (Kenuichio Harada) ****.

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  • entrailbucket
    entrailbucket Posts: 5,088 Chairperson of the Boards
    edited July 2023
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    @luisdile02 said:
    That red is a Polaris/BRB stopper, full stop.

    I think we need to stop saying stuff like this, or even thinking it, and it would be helpful if the devs also did that.

    If they're trying to create options that you can use on offense to beat Polaris on defense, they've been relatively successful at that. If they're trying to reduce usage of Polaris, I believe that is not possible, short of two extreme scenarios.

    Scenario 1 is a nerf, and we've been over that ad infinitum. Scenario 2 is a passive hard counter stronger and narrower than anything they've ever done, something like "if Polaris is on the enemy team, down her at the start of battle."

    Anything less than either of those will do absolutely nothing, if their goal is to reduce usage/improve diversity. Obviously we don't know what their goal is with this seemingly endless string of 4* Polaris-adjacent characters, but if they're actually trying to counter her into obscurity, it will never work.

  • KGB
    KGB Posts: 3,030 Chairperson of the Boards
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    @entrailbucket said:

    @luisdile02 said:
    That red is a Polaris/BRB stopper, full stop.

    I think we need to stop saying stuff like this, or even thinking it, and it would be helpful if the devs also did that.

    If they're trying to create options that you can use on offense to beat Polaris on defense, they've been relatively successful at that. If they're trying to reduce usage of Polaris, I believe that is not possible, short of two extreme scenarios.

    Scenario 1 is a nerf, and we've been over that ad infinitum. Scenario 2 is a passive hard counter stronger and narrower than anything they've ever done, something like "if Polaris is on the enemy team, down her at the start of battle."

    Anything less than either of those will do absolutely nothing, if their goal is to reduce usage/improve diversity. Obviously we don't know what their goal is with this seemingly endless string of 4* Polaris-adjacent characters, but if they're actually trying to counter her into obscurity, it will never work.

    Actually Chasm is a pretty hard counter to Polaris because he prevents BRB/Grockets tiles from being placed. At that point she is useless other than the 1 special her own passive places (assuming no one else placed a CD/Repeater etc before she gets her passive to trigger) and relatively easy to deal with.

    KGB

  • entrailbucket
    entrailbucket Posts: 5,088 Chairperson of the Boards
    edited July 2023
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    Sure, but he hasn't really reduced Polaris's usage, from what I've seen. So if he's that strong of a counter, what would it actually take to see less of her? Obviously Silver Samurai is not it, nor are any of the other "counters" released over the years.

  • pepitedechocolat
    pepitedechocolat Posts: 204 Tile Toppler
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    I don't see many polaris in pvp these days, and in any case polaris teams are easy to win and have a tendency to choke if attacking meaty team

  • KGB
    KGB Posts: 3,030 Chairperson of the Boards
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    @entrailbucket said:
    Sure, but he hasn't really Polaris's reduced usage, from what I've seen. So if he's that strong of a counter, what would it actually take to see less of her? Obviously Silver Samurai is not it, nor are any of the other "counters" released over the years.

    But how many 4* players have Chasm covered enough to climb with him (which would take say 6-8 covers and L350 range)? I bet only a few softcappers have him in this state.

    New 4* players in the last 6-8 months likely don't have Chasm (he was released before they jumped to 4* land) or have at most 1-2 covers. Players who were 4* players when Chasm was released, likely covered him and already made the jump to baby 5* land and don't use Polaris anymore because they have 5* champs.

    The Polaris you see are players who are breaking MMR (around 800+). You can't get there with 1-3 cover Chasm, you need Polaris to do that. But what you CAN do while climbing in 4* land is beat up a ton of Polaris teams with your 1-3 cover Chasm and then switch to your own Polaris once you get high enough that you have to run her to move further ahead.

    KGB

  • entrailbucket
    entrailbucket Posts: 5,088 Chairperson of the Boards
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    @KGB said:

    @entrailbucket said:
    Sure, but he hasn't really Polaris's reduced usage, from what I've seen. So if he's that strong of a counter, what would it actually take to see less of her? Obviously Silver Samurai is not it, nor are any of the other "counters" released over the years.

    But how many 4* players have Chasm covered enough to climb with him (which would take say 6-8 covers and L350 range)? I bet only a few softcappers have him in this state.

    New 4* players in the last 6-8 months likely don't have Chasm (he was released before they jumped to 4* land) or have at most 1-2 covers. Players who were 4* players when Chasm was released, likely covered him and already made the jump to baby 5* land and don't use Polaris anymore because they have 5* champs.

    The Polaris you see are players who are breaking MMR (around 800+). You can't get there with 1-3 cover Chasm, you need Polaris to do that. But what you CAN do while climbing in 4* land is beat up a ton of Polaris teams with your 1-3 cover Chasm and then switch to your own Polaris once you get high enough that you have to run her to move further ahead.

    KGB

    Again, just to correct this, I see tons of Polaris players around 500 or 600 points, or less. I see them for 5 or less points, so I doubt they've broken MMR.

  • Punisher5784
    Punisher5784 Posts: 3,837 Chairperson of the Boards
    edited July 2023
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    @KGB said:

    @entrailbucket said:
    Sure, but he hasn't really Polaris's reduced usage, from what I've seen. So if he's that strong of a counter, what would it actually take to see less of her? Obviously Silver Samurai is not it, nor are any of the other "counters" released over the years.

    But how many 4* players have Chasm covered enough to climb with him (which would take say 6-8 covers and L350 range)? I bet only a few softcappers have him in this state.

    New 4* players in the last 6-8 months likely don't have Chasm (he was released before they jumped to 4* land) or have at most 1-2 covers. Players who were 4* players when Chasm was released, likely covered him and already made the jump to baby 5* land and don't use Polaris anymore because they have 5* champs.

    The Polaris you see are players who are breaking MMR (around 800+). You can't get there with 1-3 cover Chasm, you need Polaris to do that. But what you CAN do while climbing in 4* land is beat up a ton of Polaris teams with your 1-3 cover Chasm and then switch to your own Polaris once you get high enough that you have to run her to move further ahead.

    KGB

    I was able to fully cover Chasm from 1 to 13 in less than 2wks with faving him and Spider-Man 2099

    As for Polaris, she's in 80% of my PvP matches. I don't mind cause she's easy to kill

  • KGB
    KGB Posts: 3,030 Chairperson of the Boards
    edited July 2023
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    Here's my queue (20 skips worth) in the Loki PvP that I just joined in CL10 with me at 0 points. My T5 characters average ~L367.

    1) 435 Strange (12 covers, 412 Loki, 460 OML (6 covers)
    2) 350 Kang (covered), 328 Loki, 282 Deathlok
    3) 491 OML (8 covers), 163 Loki (5 covers), 522 Okoye (10 covers)
    4) 452 Thanos (covered), 145 Loki loaner, 311 Grocket
    5) 452 Kitty Pryde (covered), 382 Loki, 300 Grocket
    6) 280 Polaris, 376 Loki, 390 ProfX (9 covers)
    7) 538 Okoye (11 covers), 412 Loki, 394 Polaris,
    8) 399 Magik (2 covers), 145 Loki loaner, 450 Black Widow (covered)
    9) 332 Polaris, 412 Loki, 333 Grocket
    10) 454 Shang (covered), 145 Loki loaner, 290 Valk
    11) 445 Magik (5 covers), 412 Loki, 360 Thanos (7 covers)
    12) 345 Elektra (6 covers), 335 Loki, 300 Emma (3 covers)
    13) 390 Black Bolt (9 covers), 412 Loki, 360 Hawkeye (7 covers)
    14) 405 Kitty Pryde (10 covers), 412 Loki, 321 Polaris
    15) 296 Polaris, 333 Loki, 451 Carbage (covered)
    16) 275 Karnak, 145 Loki loaner, 435 Kamala (12 covers)
    17) 304 Polaris, 412 Loki, 576 OML (covered)
    18) 279 Polaris, 412 Loki, 454 Kitty Pryde (covered)
    19) 367 Ikaris, 381 Loki, 460 Okoye (6 covers)
    20) 420 BRB (11 covers), 359 Loki, 274 Black Panther (the 4*)

    So she's there but hardly dominant and I saw just 1 team where she was paired with obvious partners like BRB/Grocket so I assume the teams she was on were to counter teams with special tile users.

    Mostly what I see are boosted or baby champed 5* that aren't fully covered. Sometimes I get them well into the 500's which makes them FAR scarier than any Polaris.

    KGB

  • entrailbucket
    entrailbucket Posts: 5,088 Chairperson of the Boards
    edited July 2023
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    I'm not sure your matchmaking (especially at 0, where some odd things are happening with the algorithm) is representative of everything that's out there. Honestly, this just looks weird.

    It seems that the algorithm doesn't quite know what to do with you. If you gave point values with those matches it'd give us some more information. We'd also need to know which slice you're in, and we'd need someone who had some idea of the general play patterns there.

  • Bowgentle
    Bowgentle Posts: 7,926 Chairperson of the Boards
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    @entrailbucket said:
    I'm not sure your matchmaking (especially at 0, where some odd things are happening with the algorithm) is representative of everything that's out there. Honestly, this just looks weird.

    It seems that the algorithm doesn't quite know what to do with you. If you gave point values with those matches it'd give us some more information. We'd also need to know which slice you're in, and we'd also need someone who had some idea of the general play patterns there.

    Once again proof that softcapping was never intended.

  • pepitedechocolat
    pepitedechocolat Posts: 204 Tile Toppler
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    thanks for derailing thread AGAIN and AGAIN
    (for the record I have similar experience to @KGB , but I'd appreciate these discussion to not pollute new char threads)

  • DAZ0273
    DAZ0273 Posts: 9,755 Chairperson of the Boards
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    @pepitedechocolat said:
    thanks for derailing thread AGAIN and AGAIN
    (for the record I have similar experience to @KGB , but I'd appreciate these discussion to not pollute new char threads)

    But did you not contribute to the Polaris discussion? Glass house and stones?

  • pepitedechocolat
    pepitedechocolat Posts: 204 Tile Toppler
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    @DAZ0273 said:

    @pepitedechocolat said:
    thanks for derailing thread AGAIN and AGAIN
    (for the record I have similar experience to @KGB , but I'd appreciate these discussion to not pollute new char threads)

    But did you not contribute to the Polaris discussion? Glass house and stones?

    Idd that is my bad, was thinking this was the other thread about chasm pregnancy

  • mani82
    mani82 Posts: 149 Tile Toppler
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    U mean chasm is pregnant oh boy nobody wants a baby Chasm from becoming the next meta lol

  • KGB
    KGB Posts: 3,030 Chairperson of the Boards
    edited July 2023
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    @entrailbucket said:
    I'm not sure your matchmaking (especially at 0, where some odd things are happening with the algorithm) is representative of everything that's out there. Honestly, this just looks weird.

    It seems that the algorithm doesn't quite know what to do with you. If you gave point values with those matches it'd give us some more information. We'd also need to know which slice you're in, and we'd need someone who had some idea of the general play patterns there.

    S5.

    Here's my queue (just posting a dozen this time to save typing) at 575 points this morning

    1) 476 Magik (7 covers), 412 Loki, 414 OML (3 covers) - 49 points
    2) 274 Sabretooth, 412 Loki, 294 Nick Fury - 30 points
    3) 399 Magik (2 covers), 380 Loki, 435 Ronan (12 covers) - 44 points
    4) 405 She Hulk (10 covers), 145 Loki loaner, 445 OML (5 covers) - 35 points
    5) 450 Kitty Pryde (covered), 314 Loki, 285 Polaris - 31 points
    6) 390 BRB (9 covers), 328 Loki, 270 Polaris - 30 points
    7) 445 Elektro (10 covers), 412 Loki, 445 Okoye (8 covers) - 36 points
    8) 522 Magik (10 covers), 412 Loki, 507 Okoye (9 covers) - 40 points
    9) 460 Magik (6 covers), 412 Loki, 399 Elektro (2 covers) - 43 points
    10) 170 Hit Monkey, 145 Loki loaner, 553 Magik (12 covers) - 43 points
    11) 538 OML (11 covers), 412 Loki, 373 Carnage (4*) - 33 points
    12) 299 Polaris, 319 Loki, 420 BRB (11 covers) - 47 points

    As you can see it's not that much different than at 0 points. Its not til I get to 800ish that I notice a real difference in my queue. Seems this event everyone has and is using boosted Magik because she's so new that most 4* players have her.

    KGB

    P.S. I apologize for hijacking the thread. I'd split this off into another discussion if I could along with some other non-related new character stuff.

  • DAZ0273
    DAZ0273 Posts: 9,755 Chairperson of the Boards
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    @Scofie or @fight4thedream - are you able to assist with KGB's request at all please?

  • Venomous
    Venomous Posts: 234 Tile Toppler
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    Honestly once I immediately enter SCL10, I may try this experiment myself. I currently only have 1 finished 5 star with a second likely going to be done by the time I reach it. Both are frankly some of the worst 5 stars in the game though so let's see.

  • Daniel2121
    Daniel2121 Posts: 205 Tile Toppler
    edited August 2023
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    Polaris is still super strong. She is one of these characters that allows you to fight and beat down enemies that would be too strong to defeat otherwise. She enables players to push beyond their league and outmuscle stronger enemy teams. BRB is not really stopped by Chasm here, if you could just gather 7 blue AP he starts spamming protects again. Chasm is annoying at the start though, not denying that.

    Mr. Negative now is yet another of those characters possibly labelled as "supposedly a Polaris counter but synergizes very well with her too" as are Sabertooth, Morbius, Mantis and a bunch of others