MPQ Developer Q&A April 2023 (ANSWERS)

entrailbucket

@Bowgentle said:

@entrailbucket said:

@Tony_Foot said:

@entrailbucket said:
I just hope that BCS learns something from the whole fiasco. MPQ devs cannot ever "counterplay" their way out of a character who's that big a problem. It didn't work for OML and it didn't work for Gambit. It didn't work for Chasm and it won't work for whoever the next mistake is.

Before my time, but didn't Blacksuit work well against the strikes? And Switch certainly worked against Hulk before the other revive characters came along. I don't even think OML needed the nerf compared to others.

Counterplay can most definitely work. There's been a ton of good ideas on how to counterplay that chasm meta.

As for old gambit, I'd love to be able to go against him now, even without a chasm team to see how easy he is now the game has moved on.

They actually did try to counter OML's healing. Kate Bishop was one try (her blue prevents healing) and I think there were one or two others. Nobody really used BSS against him, that I remember.

They tried to counter Gambit a ton of times, and none of that worked either. Scarlet Witch was the one time their counter did something, and that was because she's pretty overpowered all on her own (they basically just made a character that counters "damage" -- she'd really even work against Chasm if he didn't resurrect infinitely).

I agree that there are ways to counter Chasm that will work. There are even ways to do it that aren't overpowered! One simple one is a passive that turns off resurrection. Another is a passive that converts all void tiles to basics every turn.

I don't know why they haven't done those, or others like them. Both groups of devs tend to create these really soft, active counters to passives, and they just never do anything.

Well, Kamar-taj exists.
But by the time supports go live in PVP Chasm hopefully won't be a problem anymore.

By the time supports go live in PvP, most of us will have died of old age.

Daredevil217

27. @Bad [Official Forums]
    Question: It seems you are overcautious now prenerfing characters who us advanced players don't see as any type of threat. Why are you doing this now and you didn't in chasm and kang cases?

Answer: Chasm was designed at the outset to be a bit of a meta changer. He was overbalanced to start, but we were confident (turns out overly so) that counterplay would provide enough of a stopper on him. Kang we're in a more reasonable place with; he has a place in high meta due to his utility, but he's not a Chasm, Polaris, or Gambit. Our goal with any character is to place them in at least the top 1/3 of characters of that tier. If they don't hit that for whatever reason (::cough:: Magik ::cough::) we put them on the shortlist pile for some numbers tweaking when we've got time.

What you're seeing with other characters in regards to "pre-nerfs" is the normal course of character balance, just that they came in at a point where players are able to see. This isn't anything new, off the top of my head I can think of several characters that had this treatment before they came out but after initial player facing drafts were pushed in the Demi days. Goddess Thor, Robbie Reyes, Crystal, and Rhino all had those. You're just happening to see a couple of them in somewhat short time. But it hasn't been a regular thing recently either! Jeffrey, Human Torch, M'Baku and Colleen all went out without any balance changes for around the last 2 weeks before their releases.

I found this to be really interesting, and wonder if Polaris is due for a rebalance. If she’s being mentioned in the same breath as OG Gambit and Chasm (two of the most broken characters for their time… just missing Bishop), I imagine it’s at least possible. Shocked this one flew under the radar as everyone has been rejoicing around Chasm nerf-day.

DAZ0273

If OML got nerfed for being on too many teams then Polaris...well I am shutting up, I can't face the hate mail for finishing that sentence.

Bowgentle

Polaris and Chasm nerf on the same day!
EB is already buying popcorn!

entrailbucket

She's another great example of "counterplay doesn't work when a character reaches a certain level of overpowered." How many bad Polaris counters have they made at the 4* level? After all that, she's still in basically every 4* team I see in PvP.

I don't know that I'll celebrate it like I'm definitely going to celebrate Chasm's (final, unresurrectable) death, but she arguably deserves it even more than he does. The 4* tier is the "Polaris and Friends" tier, and that's bad for their business model.

DAZ0273

We might as well go for Shang Chi and make it a threesome...

KGB

@entrailbucket said:
She's another great example of "counterplay doesn't work when a character reaches a certain level of overpowered." How many bad Polaris counters have they made at the 4* level? After all that, she's still in basically every 4* team I see in PvP.

I don't know that I'll celebrate it like I'm definitely going to celebrate Chasm's (final, unresurrectable) death, but she arguably deserves it even more than he does. The 4* tier is the "Polaris and Friends" tier, and that's bad for their business model.

I'm pretty sure as a 550 player the only time you can see 4* teams is when they break MMR at 900 points. The only way they CAN get to 900 points is with Polaris so it's a bit of a catch-22 in what you see.

She's actually WAY down in usage in 4* PvP now that we have 5* boosts. 5* boosted from L300ish into the mid 400's down her in a couple of matches so those 5* boosted teams are far more prevalent now (plus Chasm/Anyone wrecks her if you just need to down a Polaris team).

She's also a must for CL10 PvE. Without her doing so much damage there is no way players without champed 5* could hope to play CL10. Maybe Shang/AC or Shang/Valk but you'd be talking way more time required and a lot more chance of a wipe on a cascade. Her time saving in PvE is SO important. I suspect WAY more people will howl if she's nerfed than if Chasm is.

KGB

DAZ0273

@KGB said:

@entrailbucket said:
She's another great example of "counterplay doesn't work when a character reaches a certain level of overpowered." How many bad Polaris counters have they made at the 4* level? After all that, she's still in basically every 4* team I see in PvP.

I don't know that I'll celebrate it like I'm definitely going to celebrate Chasm's (final, unresurrectable) death, but she arguably deserves it even more than he does. The 4* tier is the "Polaris and Friends" tier, and that's bad for their business model.

I'm pretty sure as a 550 player the only time you can see 4* teams is when they break MMR at 900 points. The only way they CAN get to 900 points is with Polaris so it's a bit of a catch-22 in what you see.

She's actually WAY down in usage in 4* PvP now that we have 5* boosts. 5* boosted from L300ish into the mid 400's down her in a couple of matches so those 5* boosted teams are far more prevalent now (plus Chasm/Anyone wrecks her if you just need to down a Polaris team).

She's also a must for CL10 PvE. Without her doing so much damage there is no way players without champed 5* could hope to play CL10. Maybe Shang/AC or Shang/Valk but you'd be talking way more time required and a lot more chance of a wipe on a cascade. Her time saving in PvE is SO important.

KGB

But... don't you have fully covered 5* characters and a mound of iso? Seems like an easy fix?

entrailbucket

When I see 4* players I'm at a very high score, and I'm seeing them for 4-5 points per match. They're WAY below 900 points.

Anyway, I'd say it's not at all clear that the developers want Day 1 players to be able to trivially, quickly clear CL10. If they consider that a bug and not a feature, I think that would be a very strong reason for a nerf.

DAZ0273

Polaris is a strange one. Most recent nerfs have been tied to 5* player grumbling. Gambit, Bishop, Worthy Cap these were 5* problems. Polaris is different. She barely impacts the 5* tier (unless she is stealing placement or something) but she definitely affected everything beneath. She is one of only two 4* I ever see in PvP (the other being America Chavez ) and so I assume to other 5* players like me she is a tasty snack in PvP and we don't need winfinites very often. But she underpins nearly everything below in a way that is a bit unhealthy. Nerfing her is not something that I need to happen but it might be good to ween the game off of a very severe addiction.

entrailbucket

@KGB said:

@entrailbucket said:
She's another great example of "counterplay doesn't work when a character reaches a certain level of overpowered." How many bad Polaris counters have they made at the 4* level? After all that, she's still in basically every 4* team I see in PvP.

I don't know that I'll celebrate it like I'm definitely going to celebrate Chasm's (final, unresurrectable) death, but she arguably deserves it even more than he does. The 4* tier is the "Polaris and Friends" tier, and that's bad for their business model.

I'm pretty sure as a 550 player the only time you can see 4* teams is when they break MMR at 900 points. The only way they CAN get to 900 points is with Polaris so it's a bit of a catch-22 in what you see.

She's actually WAY down in usage in 4* PvP now that we have 5* boosts. 5* boosted from L300ish into the mid 400's down her in a couple of matches so those 5* boosted teams are far more prevalent now (plus Chasm/Anyone wrecks her if you just need to down a Polaris team).

She's also a must for CL10 PvE. Without her doing so much damage there is no way players without champed 5* could hope to play CL10. Maybe Shang/AC or Shang/Valk but you'd be talking way more time required and a lot more chance of a wipe on a cascade. Her time saving in PvE is SO important. I suspect WAY more people will howl if she's nerfed than if Chasm is.

KGB

Actually, reading this again, all of the things you're citing here are potentially very good reasons why the devs might want to nerf Polaris.

We simply don't know what they think should be achievable by different roster levels, but I think it's quite a bad sign that you say the ONLY way a 4* player can reach 900 points is by using Polaris. That indicates to me that she's significantly more powerful than any other character at the tier (which, well, should be obvious, but here's more proof).

If every other character they've designed at the tier can, at most, only get you to 700 or 800...it sure seems like that's where they think you should end up, and Polaris is the bug.

Likewise, if she's the only reason that 4* players can play CL10...well, then maybe 4* players aren't supposed to be playing CL10? If they were, wouldn't the devs have released more characters that can do that?

Bad

Actually CL10, some pves like the hunt, unstable iso 8, thick and thieves etc... are so easy that no matter how much healthpool you give enemies, still it's doable.
But no competitive and that is my main reason to claim devs don't see wrong that 4* players do CL10 if they have free time. Also there is kang 3* saying hello.

As a long time 5* player even in a brolaris team polaris doesn't affects me. If they nerfed her someday probably even I wouldn't notice the loss. As long as they don't touch chavez.
Still they are not culprit of polaris OPness. And I get that they were talking about old gambit, neither are the culprits. Chasm yes.

KGB

@entrailbucket said:

@KGB said:

@entrailbucket said:
She's another great example of "counterplay doesn't work when a character reaches a certain level of overpowered." How many bad Polaris counters have they made at the 4* level? After all that, she's still in basically every 4* team I see in PvP.

I don't know that I'll celebrate it like I'm definitely going to celebrate Chasm's (final, unresurrectable) death, but she arguably deserves it even more than he does. The 4* tier is the "Polaris and Friends" tier, and that's bad for their business model.

I'm pretty sure as a 550 player the only time you can see 4* teams is when they break MMR at 900 points. The only way they CAN get to 900 points is with Polaris so it's a bit of a catch-22 in what you see.

She's actually WAY down in usage in 4* PvP now that we have 5* boosts. 5* boosted from L300ish into the mid 400's down her in a couple of matches so those 5* boosted teams are far more prevalent now (plus Chasm/Anyone wrecks her if you just need to down a Polaris team).

She's also a must for CL10 PvE. Without her doing so much damage there is no way players without champed 5* could hope to play CL10. Maybe Shang/AC or Shang/Valk but you'd be talking way more time required and a lot more chance of a wipe on a cascade. Her time saving in PvE is SO important. I suspect WAY more people will howl if she's nerfed than if Chasm is.

KGB

Actually, reading this again, all of the things you're citing here are potentially very good reasons why the devs might want to nerf Polaris.

We simply don't know what they think should be achievable by different roster levels, but I think it's quite a bad sign that you say the ONLY way a 4* player can reach 900 points is by using Polaris. That indicates to me that she's significantly more powerful than any other character at the tier (which, well, should be obvious, but here's more proof).

If every other character they've designed at the tier can, at most, only get you to 700 or 800...it sure seems like that's where they think you should end up, and Polaris is the bug.

Likewise, if she's the only reason that 4* players can play CL10...well, then maybe 4* players aren't supposed to be playing CL10? If they were, wouldn't the devs have released more characters that can do that?

To be honest, I doubt using just 4*s that you could get much more than 300 to 400 points these days.

That's because as I said, boosted 5* rule 4* PvP now. There is no reason to run boosted 4s when you can run boosted 5s and just match damage someone to death. Practically the only 4s that get run are the few that form a synergy team with a 5 (Polaris with BRB or Grocket, AC or Valk with Shang etc) or a on those rare weeks when a semi-meta 4 like Karnak is boosted he gets put with Shang.

In the 5 star High Evolutionary PvP that just ended, I think I fought exactly 2 teams that were running dual 4s characters and I skipped a couple more that were running Polaris/Grocket. EVERY other team I beat or skipped (and I skipped hundreds on my climb to 1000 points) was running 1 or 2 boosted 5s.

As for PvE, you can play CL10 without her. But your clear times are going to be close to 2 hrs using just 4 star teams. That's because they just don't do enough damage so you end up running some kind of winfinte/stun team. Polaris is just a quality of life change for 4 star players doing PvE because she cuts your clear time down from ~2 hrs to 45 minutes. Does that quality of life change say she needs a nerf?

KGB

entrailbucket

None of us are qualified to say, is the thing.

Obviously they don't intend CL10 to be accessible to all players, because it's gated by CL, and the fights are quite difficult. At what point should players be able to clear CL10 easily/quickly? Nobody knows, and I doubt they'll ever tell us.

But again, I think it's...not a particularly good sign that out of EVERY SINGLE other 4* they've ever released, in the entire history of both developers' tenure, there is exactly one that lets you do CL10 quickly. Maybe all the other characters are the outliers?!?

pepitedechocolat

@Bowgentle said:
Polaris and Chasm nerf on the same day!
EB is already buying popcorn!

Has polaris nerf been confirmed ?

Polaris is a game changer for Pve, but only "strong"for pvp. As other mentioned she get eaten by boosted 5*, and get also dispatched by 4* rosters on defense. the only real trouble is lucky mthor polaris in defence, but then again, mthor ...

Nerfing her would probably make many ppl unhappy in pve, and make 5* transition harder... not sure it would be a sensible move.

@entrailbucket said:

If every other character they've designed at the tier can, at most, only get you to 700 or 800...it sure seems like that's where they think you should end up, and Polaris is the bug.

dont worry bro I dont think that is the case.

LavaManLee

I think the big difference between someone like Polaris and someone like Bishop is that Polaris is such an easy target on defense. You can't fight against other 5s and leave that team out as she is easy picking. Bishop was awful to play on defense especially with 5s. He was way more out of his league on defense than Polaris.

entrailbucket

The entire point of this digression was that the developers themselves just grouped Chasm, (pre-nerf) Gambit, and Polaris in the same category. One of those was nerfed for being massively overpowered, one of them is about to be nerfed for being massively overpowered, and the other one is Polaris.

Why would they have chosen those 3 examples, out of all the characters they could have picked?

pepitedechocolat

@entrailbucket said:
The entire point of this digression was that the developers themselves just grouped Chasm, (pre-nerf) Gambit, and Polaris in the same category. One of those was nerfed for being massively overpowered, one of them is about to be nerfed for being massively overpowered, and the other one is Polaris.

Why would they have chosen those 3 examples, out of all the characters they could have picked?

That is a fully valid question for June Q&A !

Still Polaris is a relatively different beast from the other two, she is not "frustrating" to play against.

DAZ0273

@LavaManLee said:
I think the big difference between someone like Polaris and someone like Bishop is that Polaris is such an easy target on defense. You can't fight against other 5s and leave that team out as she is easy picking. Bishop was awful to play on defense especially with 5s. He was way more out of his league on defense than Polaris.

Yeah but that was it and it was 5* players who exploited him the most. Bishop Vs Bishop without 5* was one of my favourite things - like a wild west shootout! We have enough toons who could handle him now - bring him back!!! 😂😉😉😉

Bowgentle

I'm not sure if Bishop wouldn't still be a huge nuisance for 5* players.
He can stay dead for all I care.