Roster level question

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  • Scofie
    Scofie GLOBAL_MODERATORS Posts: 1,127 Chairperson of the Boards
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    An interesting conversation but it is at risk of veering off the original topic....

  • DAZ0273
    DAZ0273 Posts: 9,614 Chairperson of the Boards
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    When I encounter 4* players with softcapped 5's they inevitably have Polaris on which I am obviously thankful for as that is one character I can remove in 1 - 2 moves. I see America Chavez also. I very rarely if at all see any of the 4* boost list for that week. If we had more 4* PvP I could also see the advantage of having high level essential 4's for a PvP with a softcapped roster.

    Now I can definitely get behind the idea of holding off moving up until you have a reasonable amount of 5's who you can champ for variety - I went with 6 characters I think, mostly good ones, oh and Cable! I can't get my head around what advantages you get though if you go beyond that amount and just keep piling up fully covered 5's but everybody is entitled to play this game how they like/enjoy.

    I also think it is entirely possible to become a 5* player and not get bogged down in all the stereotypes that Hound applies. I have 30+ 5* Champs but I don't min/max, co-ordinate on Line BUT I do come to the Forums and enjoy them for what they are and otherwise do what I feel like. Hound is of course famous for his "lump all together" mentality so he probably has a brain freeze/meltdown when players don't conform to his expectations.

  • entrailbucket
    entrailbucket Posts: 4,898 Chairperson of the Boards
    edited March 2023
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    This has all been pretty eye-opening for me (and maybe some other very old competitive players). Our prejudice against softcappers dates back to a time when the strategy wasn't just advantageous -- in many respects it was optimal. We resented these players because they were competing against us for the same rewards and winning every time. They easily beat us because they were playing against enemies that were hundreds of levels lower and proportionally much much weaker than their rosters.

    Now? I'm struggling to find a single advantage to softcapping, based on what's been described here. There doesn't appear to be much, if any, more diversity, and there's a hard ceiling on rewards. It seems like these players have some strange ideas about the horrible things that might happen if they move up a tier, things that are either outdated or just totally untrue.

  • DAZ0273
    DAZ0273 Posts: 9,614 Chairperson of the Boards
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    I remember the arguments about PvE roster based scaling and softcappers from way back (although it didn't affect me at that time) and being punished for doing what the game naturally encouraged you to do - i.e. level your characters. SCL fixed that issue for sure.

    I'm very interested to hear what SHIELD Sim queues look like for 4* players these days above a certain point and whether there is variety there or not in terms of what part of your roster you can use.

  • entrailbucket
    entrailbucket Posts: 4,898 Chairperson of the Boards
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    It wasn't just PvE. When 1* cupcakes in PvP were a thing, softcap rosters with the right friends could very easily score multiple thousands in PvP and compete with endgame rosters for placement rewards.

  • DAZ0273
    DAZ0273 Posts: 9,614 Chairperson of the Boards
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    Right. I remember that and the arguments about the "fairness" of it (It's an EXPLOIT vs rising tide raises all ships, etc). If you knew a good baker then you were locked in.

  • KGB
    KGB Posts: 2,933 Chairperson of the Boards
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    @DAZ0273 said:
    I remember the arguments about PvE roster based scaling and softcappers from way back (although it didn't affect me at that time) and being punished for doing what the game naturally encouraged you to do - i.e. level your characters. SCL fixed that issue for sure.

    I'm very interested to hear what SHIELD Sim queues look like for 4* players these days above a certain point and whether there is variety there or not in terms of what part of your roster you can use.

    Shield sim is what PvP used to look like before 5* boosts. Without the +100 levels the 5* I do see are all in the 300-350 range and almost always undercovered (I do find few fellow softcappers). Those are trival to beat esp if you bring 4* Juggs to tank to absorb their match damage. I avoid Chasm just because he is annoying and because it's not hard to do so.

    Up to 1000 points you can queue all kinds of interesting teams including ones with max champed 3* (most often Strange but seeing more of the newly released 3*)

    From 1000-1600 its now exclusively champed 4s and undercovered 5 in the 300-375 range.

    From 1700 to 2000 it's basically meta teams where all 3 characters are L330-450. You have to choose the correct counter team to run or you can skip a bunch to those teams that whatever team you are running (say BRB, Polaris, 5* Shehulk) can handle with ease (ie avoid Chasm and other Polaris teams).

    KGB

  • Vhailorx
    Vhailorx Posts: 6,085 Chairperson of the Boards
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    @Bowgentle said:

    @entrailbucket said:
    I think they want players to use those boosted 5*, though. Remember, they make their money on roster slots. The 5* release pace has been really high for a long time, and they've actually increased those rewards.

    They need to make sure newer players buy a slot for every new 5*, and a really good way to do that is to make single-covered 5* better than every other character.

    Yeah, and giving away 5* covers in boss events also sells roster slots.
    For us, it's "generosity", but I'm pretty sure that's only a side effect.

    I'm pretty sure I was making this argument on these forums at least as long ago as 2018. It just made absolutely no sense that Demi refused to give away a single cover of 5* releases when the net effect of doing so would be to increase roster slot pressure on everyone AND generate veteran goodwill. And the "cost" of doing so was pretty minimal as the whale game in MPQ involves lvl 500+ characters. a single cover isn't going to have a huge effect on spending for those people who don't consider a new release "finished" until they collect 70+ covers.

  • fractalvisions
    fractalvisions Posts: 306 Mover and Shaker
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    @entrailbucket said:
    If you're using mostly "meta" characters anyway, then the only significant difference you'd encounter from leveling up some guys would be the ability to hit 1200 consistently. 5* players can occasionally use fun or diverse teams too, and many do.

    Sure, if I get to the point where I'm mostly using meta characters, then there wouldn't be much reason to avoid 5* land. Time will tell if I ever reach that point. When you say that 5* players can occasionally use fun or diverse teams, I presume the emphasis there is on occasionally? Or are there 5* players regularly making use of off-meta 4s?

  • skittledaddy
    skittledaddy Posts: 973 Critical Contributor
    edited March 2023
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    @KGB said:

    @DAZ0273 said:
    I remember the arguments about PvE roster based scaling and softcappers from way back (although it didn't affect me at that time) and being punished for doing what the game naturally encouraged you to do - i.e. level your characters. SCL fixed that issue for sure.

    I'm very interested to hear what SHIELD Sim queues look like for 4* players these days above a certain point and whether there is variety there or not in terms of what part of your roster you can use.

    Shield sim is what PvP used to look like before 5* boosts. Without the +100 levels the 5* I do see are all in the 300-350 range and almost always undercovered (I do find few fellow softcappers). Those are trival to beat esp if you bring 4* Juggs to tank to absorb their match damage. I avoid Chasm just because he is annoying and because it's not hard to do so.

    Up to 1000 points you can queue all kinds of interesting teams including ones with max champed 3* (most often Strange but seeing more of the newly released 3*)

    From 1000-1600 its now exclusively champed 4s and undercovered 5 in the 300-375 range.

    From 1700 to 2000 it's basically meta teams where all 3 characters are L330-450. You have to choose the correct counter team to run or you can skip a bunch to those teams that whatever team you are running (say BRB, Polaris, 5* Shehulk) can handle with ease (ie avoid Chasm and other Polaris teams).

    KGB

    This is mostly my experience, too, which shouldn't be a surprise since KGB and I have been pretty much on equal roster footing for years. I hardly ever even see a 5* until around 1,000-1,200 points. Then it's typically weak stuff like undercovered GrittyJuggs or ShangValkChavez. Stuff a Sabretooth, or Icem4n can easily handle as part of a counter team. Vulture is a staple of mine in SSIM, too. Plus I still can't pass up chances to Quake+Nightcrawler Bamfinite my way through a dozen or so Juggs-based opponents each season. That's just too much fun. I leave Juggs/PolGrocket out as my final-battle defensive team.
    Once the points get to 1,500 or so, then I might start seeing baby-champed BRB or Kitty (+PolGrocket). For this tier I will bring out a Medusa+Karnak to as part of my counter. If not them it'll involve KatePryde, Blob, or the aforementioned Vulture. Polaris typically joins the fight here, too.
    At 1,800 the BRBs/Shangs/Kittys/MThors are usually both baby-champed (never more than 460, or so) With Polaris/MMay/Chavez as the typical 3rds. This is finally the point where I will typically switch to my 5s to get to that last 2,000 mark and then I check out of SSIM for the season.
    I see so few Chasms (and when I do it's almost always with Miles/Silk, never IHulk) that I typically forget he is even in this game except for when I remember to put out my own Immortal team as a defensive scarecrow (which typically is very effective in my MMR).

    I will admit that the reason I don't see many Chasms in pick-2 PVP is because since I pseudo-retired from MPQ about 3 months ago I only ever bother PVPing in the last 20-30 minutes of a slice (when I bother to even play at all, that is). That usually lets me hit fellow 4* rosters non-stop to around 700 points and then the slice is over. Back when I routinely hit 1200+ points (yes, I will admit it was only because of coordination help) Chasm still hadn't reared his ugly head much in the game.

  • Daredevil217
    Daredevil217 Posts: 3,913 Chairperson of the Boards
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    @fractalvisions said:

    @entrailbucket said:
    If you're using mostly "meta" characters anyway, then the only significant difference you'd encounter from leveling up some guys would be the ability to hit 1200 consistently. 5* players can occasionally use fun or diverse teams too, and many do.

    Sure, if I get to the point where I'm mostly using meta characters, then there wouldn't be much reason to avoid 5* land. Time will tell if I ever reach that point. When you say that 5* players can occasionally use fun or diverse teams, I presume the emphasis there is on occasionally? Or are there 5* players regularly making use of off-meta 4s?

    Not off-meta 4s, but absolutely off-meta 5s thanks to the god boosts. Phoenix, Surfer, Banner, and Kingpin, have been great boosted post-rework for example. Like I said, with 80 characters in the tier, there is no lacking for variety. That’s definitely enough for me personally. Especially once Chasm is “dealt with with”.

  • entrailbucket
    entrailbucket Posts: 4,898 Chairperson of the Boards
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    @fractalvisions said:

    @entrailbucket said:
    If you're using mostly "meta" characters anyway, then the only significant difference you'd encounter from leveling up some guys would be the ability to hit 1200 consistently. 5* players can occasionally use fun or diverse teams too, and many do.

    Sure, if I get to the point where I'm mostly using meta characters, then there wouldn't be much reason to avoid 5* land. Time will tell if I ever reach that point. When you say that 5* players can occasionally use fun or diverse teams, I presume the emphasis there is on occasionally? Or are there 5* players regularly making use of off-meta 4s?

    I'd say it really just depends on what you're doing. If you're playing PvE, then literally anything is fair game, especially if you don't care about the clock.

    In PvP, I expect it's quite similar to what you already do. When it's time to get serious/climb/score points, you use your best team. At any other time, you use whatever you feel like. As far as off-meta characters, I think it'd be difficult to beat 5* teams using, say, unboosted Talos, but you said you aren't using characters like that anyway.

    The fact is (and people never put this together, I don't know why) -- you are already winning very difficult fights all the time, against higher level enemies than you'll ever see in PvP. You're winning those fights repeatedly and quickly -- in PvE. Whatever you currently use to win fights in PvE can easily be used to win fights in PvP.

  • Glockoma
    Glockoma Posts: 553 Critical Contributor
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    @skittledaddy said:

    @KGB said:

    @DAZ0273 said:
    I remember the arguments about PvE roster based scaling and softcappers from way back (although it didn't affect me at that time) and being punished for doing what the game naturally encouraged you to do - i.e. level your characters. SCL fixed that issue for sure.

    I'm very interested to hear what SHIELD Sim queues look like for 4* players these days above a certain point and whether there is variety there or not in terms of what part of your roster you can use.

    Shield sim is what PvP used to look like before 5* boosts. Without the +100 levels the 5* I do see are all in the 300-350 range and almost always undercovered (I do find few fellow softcappers). Those are trival to beat esp if you bring 4* Juggs to tank to absorb their match damage. I avoid Chasm just because he is annoying and because it's not hard to do so.

    Up to 1000 points you can queue all kinds of interesting teams including ones with max champed 3* (most often Strange but seeing more of the newly released 3*)

    From 1000-1600 its now exclusively champed 4s and undercovered 5 in the 300-375 range.

    From 1700 to 2000 it's basically meta teams where all 3 characters are L330-450. You have to choose the correct counter team to run or you can skip a bunch to those teams that whatever team you are running (say BRB, Polaris, 5* Shehulk) can handle with ease (ie avoid Chasm and other Polaris teams).

    KGB

    This is mostly my experience, too, which shouldn't be a surprise since KGB and I have been pretty much on equal roster footing for years. I hardly ever even see a 5* until around 1,000-1,200 points. Then it's typically weak stuff like undercovered GrittyJuggs or ShangValkChavez. Stuff a Sabretooth, or Icem4n can easily handle as part of a counter team. Vulture is a staple of mine in SSIM, too. Plus I still can't pass up chances to Quake+Nightcrawler Bamfinite my way through a dozen or so Juggs-based opponents each season. That's just too much fun. I leave Juggs/PolGrocket out as my final-battle defensive team.
    Once the points get to 1,500 or so, then I might start seeing baby-champed BRB or Kitty (+PolGrocket). For this tier I will bring out a Medusa+Karnak to as part of my counter. If not them it'll involve KatePryde, Blob, or the aforementioned Vulture. Polaris typically joins the fight here, too.
    At 1,800 the BRBs/Shangs/Kittys/MThors are usually both baby-champed (never more than 460, or so) With Polaris/MMay/Chavez as the typical 3rds. This is finally the point where I will typically switch to my 5s to get to that last 2,000 mark and then I check out of SSIM for the season.
    I see so few Chasms (and when I do it's almost always with Miles/Silk, never IHulk) that I typically forget he is even in this game except for when I remember to put out my own Immortal team as a defensive scarecrow (which typically is very effective in my MMR).

    I will admit that the reason I don't see many Chasms in pick-2 PVP is because since I pseudo-retired from MPQ about 3 months ago I only ever bother PVPing in the last 20-30 minutes of a slice (when I bother to even play at all, that is). That usually lets me hit fellow 4* rosters non-stop to around 700 points and then the slice is over. Back when I routinely hit 1200+ points (yes, I will admit it was only because of coordination help) Chasm still hadn't reared his ugly head much in the game.

    This thread has garnered some good debate. Thanks for everyone’s contribution.

    I absolutely love your take @skittledaddy

    The thoughts have only come to my head as I too enjoy the use of counter teams with a mix of novel 4’s, even as a 5 player with the whole cast champed, topping @L500. Shield sim is where I get to explore most of my creativity as I get to see how seemingly silly teams get to stand up to other players in my MMR. This was definitely before ye ole Chasm.

    I loved having explored dual 4* flyers(Carolina dean and Vulture)/iHulk (built 3/5/5 for max match), HawkEyeball with Blob (absolutely nutty how effective this team was), and recently 4* Rogue with Colossus/rebooted 5* FA Cap. (Rogue is so highly underrated). Even Chasm with Miles/SMPP is really great. I have much more fun doing this than anything else in the game, especially when I have to switch to my meta teams and reluctantly slog to the last rewards lol.

    I am a fan of the art of the mechanics and the 4*’s add some really special interactions. Not just meta ones. It’s another reason I LOVE the Combined Arms event in PVP. We need more like this!

    Anyway, Putting the creations out in the wild via Shield Sim is a great tool to get some instant feedback on their effectiveness. I also am one of the only folks in the game that loves pvp far more than that “day old bread taste” of pve. I love the cat and mouse between players and some of the good laughs it can provide. If you pretend really hard, it can even feel like gaming again!! Cheers

  • DAZ0273
    DAZ0273 Posts: 9,614 Chairperson of the Boards
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    I find I don't really miss the 4* stuff coz I can try all that out in DDQ every day if I feel like it. We have two nodes that are completely open for 4* team combinations and one other that provides two slots for 4's (although I normally play 5*DP there for the daily token).

    Personally - I wish they would do an off season short SHIELD Sim that had no pressure attached to it in terms of points loss for Season totals. That would be a nice place to mess around in.

  • fractalvisions
    fractalvisions Posts: 306 Mover and Shaker
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    @entrailbucket said:

    @fractalvisions said:

    @entrailbucket said:
    If you're using mostly "meta" characters anyway, then the only significant difference you'd encounter from leveling up some guys would be the ability to hit 1200 consistently. 5* players can occasionally use fun or diverse teams too, and many do.

    Sure, if I get to the point where I'm mostly using meta characters, then there wouldn't be much reason to avoid 5* land. Time will tell if I ever reach that point. When you say that 5* players can occasionally use fun or diverse teams, I presume the emphasis there is on occasionally? Or are there 5* players regularly making use of off-meta 4s?

    I'd say it really just depends on what you're doing. If you're playing PvE, then literally anything is fair game, especially if you don't care about the clock.

    This thread isn't about PvE.

    In PvP, I expect it's quite similar to what you already do. When it's time to get serious/climb/score points, you use your best team. At any other time, you use whatever you feel like. As far as off-meta characters, I think it'd be difficult to beat 5* teams using, say, unboosted Talos, but you said you aren't using characters like that anyway.

    Why are you singling out Talos in particular again? Why do you think he is relevant to this conversation? If it helps you understand, here are some of the 4* that I have recently used in PvP (some were boosted, some not): Wasp, Prof. X, Gorr, Echo, Valkyrie, Jubilee, Silk, Spiderman 2099, Spider Gwen, ME Hulk, Namora, Elsa Bloodstone.

    The fact is (and people never put this together, I don't know why) -- you are already winning very difficult fights all the time, against higher level enemies than you'll ever see in PvP. You're winning those fights repeatedly and quickly -- in PvE. Whatever you currently use to win fights in PvE can easily be used to win fights in PvP.

    That's interesting. What you've written here strikes me as stating the obvious and I would assume that everyone reading this has put this together. But not everyone wants to play PvE and PvP with the same characters. Again, I'm not sure what the relevance of this comment is. To my understanding, this thread is not about winning fights easily. It's about winning fights with a diverse range of characters.

  • entrailbucket
    entrailbucket Posts: 4,898 Chairperson of the Boards
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    I'm singling out Talos as an example of a bad character. You asked if 5star players can use 4star characters. We can, and do, but if the question is "can 5star players use ALL 4star characters" then the answer is no. It sounds like that's not a concern because softcappers aren't using the bad characters either. The characters you listed are all upper mid-tier/synergy characters.

    Was my statement really so obvious? Can you win fights in PvE now with a diverse range of characters? Why would PvP be any different? The opponents you fight in PvE are much higher level than any possible PvP opponent, and you have no problems winning those fights with diverse mid-tier or synergy characters now.

  • Bowgentle
    Bowgentle Posts: 7,926 Chairperson of the Boards
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    @entrailbucket said:
    I'm singling out Talos as an example of a bad character. You asked if 5star players can use 4star characters. We can, and do, but if the question is "can 5star players use ALL 4star characters" then the answer is no. It sounds like that's not a concern because softcappers aren't using the bad characters either. The characters you listed are all upper mid-tier/synergy characters.

    Was my statement really so obvious? Can you win fights in PvE now with a diverse range of characters? Why would PvP be any different? The opponents you fight in PvE are much higher level than any possible PvP opponent, and you have no problems winning those fights with diverse mid-tier or synergy characters now.

    In PVE you're not losing 300 while doing a fight with Mid-tier characters, though.

  • entrailbucket
    entrailbucket Posts: 4,898 Chairperson of the Boards
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    @Bowgentle said:

    @entrailbucket said:
    I'm singling out Talos as an example of a bad character. You asked if 5star players can use 4star characters. We can, and do, but if the question is "can 5star players use ALL 4star characters" then the answer is no. It sounds like that's not a concern because softcappers aren't using the bad characters either. The characters you listed are all upper mid-tier/synergy characters.

    Was my statement really so obvious? Can you win fights in PvE now with a diverse range of characters? Why would PvP be any different? The opponents you fight in PvE are much higher level than any possible PvP opponent, and you have no problems winning those fights with diverse mid-tier or synergy characters now.

    In PVE you're not losing 300 while doing a fight with Mid-tier characters, though.

    Are the softcap players actually concerned about defense? Aren't they losing 300 points every time they cross some invisible score boundary anyway?

  • Daredevil217
    Daredevil217 Posts: 3,913 Chairperson of the Boards
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    Yeah if you’re using Echo/Namora aren’t you a target and prone to losing points anyway? I’m very confused.

    If you don’t want to lose points, use faster characters or better defensive characters (meta). If you don’t care about points, then you can use whoever you want, but EB’s point is you can likely do that anyway.

  • Bowgentle
    Bowgentle Posts: 7,926 Chairperson of the Boards
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    Well yeah they're stopped at 900 where they become visible (s1).
    It's hard to know what "their" goals are, there's like 6 of them in the whole game.