Thoughts on the Upcoming End of Story Healing

BearVenger

Some background: I'm a f2p player on day 176. Total spend in MPQ: $5. I have a 40-deep roster, transitioning from 2*-3*. I have seven 2*s at level 85 and eight 3*s at level 88-116. I take whatever covers I can get and try to bring up all my desirable characters evenly, rather than max out 2-3 faves. I lean on OBW and prologue healing A LOT.

As was posted earlier, if my characters (or even just my surviving characters) were fully healed at the start of the next round, the only limit to my gameplay would be demands outside the game (work, sleep). I'd probably grind until I dropped, partly for me, and partly from the fear that someone else would grind when I wasn't. I think auto-healing would turn the last five hours of PvPs into insane feeding frenzies.

I don't have any desire to rush into 141'ing my characters, because I don't think that "those guys with the maxed 141s" have it that much easier. Wherever I'll be at and whatever I've been at, this game will find a way to throw equal or harder matchups at me. If I do hit 141, I can still only fight one match at a time.

Which brings me to prologue healing, or as I call it, "penalty laps." When I'm healing, I'm not competing. When I'm healing, I'm out of active combat, but my current score is an invite to anyone who wants to attack. The higher I'm ranked, the more attractive target I become. If I step out of PvP to heal 36 hours before the finish, there's little risk to my placement. If I try to heal without health packs at the close of a tournament, I can kiss my rewards (and season points) goodbye.

There's a double-whammy if I take some high-level 3* stars to the "penalty box": More HP to recover means more rounds to play, and stronger match damage means it's easier for my team to kill the opposition before I can activate a heal. If I waste a 2-minute round and exit with less health than what I started with, those are 2 minutes of attacks I can't catch up to. I can't imagine how long it would take to get a 141 Hulk (with 5 red) to full health.

For that reason, I really don't have a problem with prologue healing. I choose to take myself out of play and invite whatever attacks come my way.

I do see Patch and Daken 3* having an additional benefit: The Wolverine family of characters has halved recovery time, both as downed and healing characters. That could result in an extra match or conserved health pack during the last hour of a tournament.

Unknown

kensterr wrote:

@phantron, don't get me wrong, I'm trying to get my roster up to max 141. Problem is for those who have no 141 or just 85s and are matched with 141s most of the time. Also at the moment ISO distribution isn't much unless one spend a lot of time playing every day. Until Demiurge can find a balance in the system, removing prologue healing isn't that great of a move.

Well, on one hand you don't want there to be no value in depth. That's bad for the player (I should have some motivation to build up more characters, even more PvP) and bad for D3 (if players don't build more level 141 characters that's less profit for them). On the other hand it'd certainly be very bad if a new guy matches up against a guy with 3 141s, and then after you beat it you found out he's got 17 more 141s that you've to go through before you win your game because depth matters. There has to be something else much bigger that goes in first. I see end to story healing as part of whatever big plan they have, but by itself an end to story healing isn't going to do anything useful.

Unknown

I am in the midst of the' 2*-3* transition. I have one character over 100 and some maxed 2*'s including OBW. I used to prologue heal a lot, but I find that the farther I get in the game, the less I prologue heal. If they take out prologue healing, I could see it having a really paralyzing effect on those with 1* and 2* rosters who are trying to level their roster because those characters have less health so healing is more beneficial for them.

OnesOwnGrief

F2P player. Been here for a while as some of you may know. I play almost daily. The highest character I own is a 96 Hood and I'm missing 2 covers for him. Healing in my opinion is nice while pushing but up until Lazy Thor release, I didn't have a solid group outside of OBW/Thor/Wolverine. A few changes here and some changes there, I completely changed my approach at playing the game.

I join PvPs the first or second day during their 3 day schedules. Use OBW or Spider-man for healing while climbing then if I lose a character I use health packs until their gone and keep going til I can't anymore. Then I stop playing. I do the same generally for PvE now instead I typically stick to buffed characters.

What I've seen is that it keeps my MMR in check. Usually won't see 141 groups until I start reaching the higher end of my brackets and already around 600-700+ points. My PvE used to show 240s around when they were they highest but have since lowered to reasonable levels around 90-100 max. I became more lax in my play and I stop when it becomes too much. Idk if I'm just lucky but that's pretty much what I've seen since I stopped doing PvE healing.

On changes to PvE healing and what it could mean for PvP, I think the point of these changes is to even out the enemy levels and allow for better match makisystemforcing(?) people to take losses. Pretty sure by the things that IceIX has stated about how MMR is handled, what could probably be a potential problem is the habits of players causing the system to basically dump you into MMR hell. I'm all for any changes as long as the team is willing to change it back if it does not have the desired effect after sufficient player testing.

Unknown

Skimmed the thread so apologies if someone else has already posted something like this.

If D3 do away with prologue healing, I'd like to see them introduce a mechanic that restricts damage you take to a particular event, and keeps it there. So, if you are in a PvP tourney and all you main characters are at 50% health you can take them to a PvE and they'll be at 100% health. If you go back to the PvP, they'll be at 50% health, plus whatever healing time they've had. This gives us as players the benefit of not having to chose between PvP and PvE, which we have to do sometimes, but will still force people into burning through health packs if they want to push the same team all the time in one event. D3 might see a drop in health pack sales in the middle of events, but a rise during the business end of events. I see this as a decent trade off that at least gives a benefit to us as players as well as removing prologue healing.

Unknown

DaveyPitch wrote:

Skimmed the thread so apologies if someone else has already posted something like this.

If D3 do away with prologue healing, I'd like to see them introduce a mechanic that restricts damage you take to a particular event, and keeps it there. So, if you are in a PvP tourney and all you main characters are at 50% health you can take them to a PvE and they'll be at 100% health. If you go back to the PvP, they'll be at 50% health, plus whatever healing time they've had. This gives us as players the benefit of not having to chose between PvP and PvE, which we have to do sometimes, but will still force people into burning through health packs if they want to push the same team all the time in one event. D3 might see a drop in health pack sales in the middle of events, but a rise during the business end of events. I see this as a decent trade off that at least gives a benefit to us as players as well as removing prologue healing.

PvP needs to have either inflated HP for all your characters or reduced damage (those two are really the same thing) if there is no healing and no cheap tricks that allows you to win by turn 3 because it is definitely not sustainable without a significant change.

I do think they want to make you choose between PvP and PvE, though as long as PvP only requires 3 characters on your entire team I don't think the impact will be that significant once you've a developed roster.

kensterr

Phantron wrote:

DaveyPitch wrote:

Skimmed the thread so apologies if someone else has already posted something like this.

If D3 do away with prologue healing, I'd like to see them introduce a mechanic that restricts damage you take to a particular event, and keeps it there. So, if you are in a PvP tourney and all you main characters are at 50% health you can take them to a PvE and they'll be at 100% health. If you go back to the PvP, they'll be at 50% health, plus whatever healing time they've had. This gives us as players the benefit of not having to chose between PvP and PvE, which we have to do sometimes, but will still force people into burning through health packs if they want to push the same team all the time in one event. D3 might see a drop in health pack sales in the middle of events, but a rise during the business end of events. I see this as a decent trade off that at least gives a benefit to us as players as well as removing prologue healing.

PvP needs to have either inflated HP for all your characters or reduced damage (those two are really the same thing) if there is no healing and no cheap tricks that allows you to win by turn 3 because it is definitely not sustainable without a significant change.

I do think they want to make you choose between PvP and PvE, though as long as PvP only requires 3 characters on your entire team I don't think the impact will be that significant once you've a developed roster.

I mentioned this a million times - if they really want to make us choose between PVP and PVE then please make a permanent non-competitive PVE chapter(s) in Story. I would gladly skip PVP.

Unknown

I never prologue heal. Just don't have that much time to play this game. That's the biggest question here: the hardcore is exploiting this. The hardcore is trying to play this game more and win events, probably the same base buying shields and what not to make sure they win. A change like this would take the steam out of their sales

Biggest issue for me though is that a change like this guarantees OBW in every match. It actually hurts pvp and variety since you'd be an idiot not to bring healers when you are trying to push to the top of a leaderboard. There are two healers, one of which is common and the other pretty damn rare (I haven't even seen a spidey cover for about 6 months, where I keep throwing out spare OBWs).

They need to revamp the healing component entirely. Entice players to NOT bring healers during every fight. Id suggest remove all team healers (Wolvie self healing is fine). Make the only team heal on the environment tiles. I doubt anyone really ever goes for the 2nd environment ability since it costs so much. Make that a heal option and it will actually change match strategy (you will get damaged trying to execute the heal), give opportunities to heal in every match, and lower reliance on team healers

Unknown

kensterr wrote:

I mentioned this a million times - if they really want to make us choose between PVP and PVE then please make a permanent non-competitive PVE chapter(s) in Story. I would gladly skip PVP.

Well, PvP is fairly self sustaining. Sure so far almost all the new characters are introduced in PvE, but managing top 25 or so isn't terribly difficult for a top end PvP player. In the worst case you can manage a top 100 or your alliance manage top 100 (which seems to be top 250 now) and loaner + 2 really strong guys probably will work in the forseeable future barring some drastic changes to PvP.

But PvE doesn't work by itself since events are far less often. It's true PvE covers tend to be higher quality, but at some point you also need quantity. I'm pretty sure if you can magically have #1 in every PvE event (and sub) ever existed but never touched PvP, you'd barely be able to put together a competitive roster. There just aren't enough covers to build a strong team from only PvE. You'd have Patch and Captain America maxed, but that'd be it. I think they need to do something similar to the elite version of PvE, like a 150 HP buyoff for a week long (or longer) event that you can just grind for progression reward (no placement reward, or maybe minimal rewards) at relatively low intensity (so no scaling here, for example).

kensterr

@phantron not a bad idea. No scaling and no need for rubberbanding if it's non-competitive PVE. Just progression based rewards sound good to me. Don't mind the HP entrance fee - better than the cut-throat world of PVP shield hopping.

Unknown

How about just having separate health for story and pvp. I'd praise that idea not riot.

Unknown

Personally stopped using Prologue healing for a couple of months so not an issue for me.
I just stop playing when I run out of health or play smart. Spreading out/cutting down on playing time helped tons too. Having an awesome alliance that doesn't require me to play hardcore and still remain competitive is also really important.

To me having five regenerating health packs that replenishes in a still (fingers-crossed) acceptable time is pretty decent. Imagine cutting down from five to THREE (or less) and making regen time an hour or more per pack.... (Just saying, not trying to give developers any ideas. Not that they need more to mess up the game).

Unknown

Kadav wrote:

Here's a thought: how about they eliminate prologue healing by making in unnecessary instead?

What if, at the end of every match, all you characters that weren't knocked out were returned to full health? You wouldn't have to go and heal in the prologue because you'd be at full health AND you'd start seeing more diverse rosters because healing in the match isn't as necessary since you don't have to end the round near full health to continue. In this scenario, Health Packs are only used to revive fallen characters.

With this system, you get the choice as to whether you think you'll need that healing/support to tackle the challenge you face or not. Maybe you'd rather go all offence, or stack your team with damage sponges. Or maybe you do want to use a healer just to turn the tide in battle. Health Packs would still be useful, but would be used more as they should be to revive the fallen, not top off the almost healthy.

Is there any single player who would object to this solution? More player freedom to chose something besides OBW and still keep playing sounds good to me.

this is way too smart of an idea and the devs would never go for it.

Unknown

Breakking wrote:

I think that MPQ would lose up to half it's players if they eliminated prologue healing. As a player with multiple 141's, I'm not waiting the 8 hours it would take to fully revive a downed character. I'm also not going to spend valuable HP on health packs. Once you hit max levels, healing becomes necessary to play. I do not enjoy prologue healing but unfortunately it is necessary in order for me to play more than 1 hour a day.

I have spent real money for HP packs so I have the HP for shielding purposes. My real money and my interest in the game will be gone if this feature is integrated into the game. I have been a player since a Day One and hope to continue to play for a long time.

If any devs read this, PLEASE DON'T DO THIS

Thank you

I disagree "currenlty". A lot of players who are multi 141 will have a strike tile generator and CMags at this level which will allow you to play continuously for multiple hours before you run out of health packs. I have never levelled OBW and only have 2/2/0 spidey but have never really worried about this fact as I can play enought to place top 5-10 in all pvp. This doesnt and shouldnt concern PVE.
I say currently because when CMags nerf hits, we may lose this ability to play extended periods without depleting health packs.
Using CMags however leaves you just as open to being targeted as does using OBW with whom you can heal in a match so I guess story healing would be the best way to achieve a good level team for defense (which as stated I have never needed to use but may switch to on final match as many of you would).

I think that the loss of story healing will help to balance the game and will force people to mix up who they are using (arent us multi 141 players always looking for a good reason to try out different teams and posting that we enjoyed x PVE for it getting us to do so?)

This may even introduce a new mechanic of "character hopping" - open out with 2* team and get 1-2 wins, switch out to 141 offensive team to rake in more wins quickly with smaller target on your back, pull out the defensive team for final match, wait for health packs to regen, rinse & repeat. This will give most multi 141 rosters a good length play time and still leave space for real life.

Unknown

I don't have anything constructive to say but I'll say this;

Removing prologue healing = Me playing 80% less.

It is that simple. The only reason I play this much is because I'm able to prologue heal. I'm not going to start buying health packs EVER.

Another solution could be to Lock any node in Prologue where all 4 rewards have been achieved. Eventually people would run out of nodes to heal at.

A better solution would be to Auto heal characters for 30% (or some other %) after each win in PvP.

Change OBWs AGD to only heal the weakest character.

I'm curious to see what they are planning. I just hope they don't shoot themselves in the foot, or the head.

Unknown

Main issue for me is how bloody expensive Health Packs are. It is $1.99 for a pack of 5. That is $0.40 per health pack. Given how much damage one can take in a single PvP match, paying that much just to heal up your team is just ridiculous. If anything, I would make it so that we can possibly win Health Packs at the end of PvP matches (Like with Boosts). Maybe not like have them raining down, but maybe a single health pack once every few matches.

IIRC, most of the sales for MPQ come from covers and roster slots.

Unknown

Chaotic Ryu wrote:

IIRC, most of the sales for MPQ come from covers and roster slots.

Their own figures for HP spending had them at like 7%. Given how much the whole healing system drags down gameplay, they'd probably make back more than that replacing it with a more sensible system.

Unknown

Stupid, Stupid, STUPID.....D3 going to run everybody away from their game....greedy #$@#$#

Unknown

Lyrian wrote:

Much to catch up on here, I'll probably miss some of the good points presented in the thread.

-- I can't see full health restoration after each match occurring. This would eliminate health packs altogether, which would constitute endless grinding. Further, and more importantly, this would eliminate one of the core F2P aspects of the game, the lives system, which is a bigger atrocity. The core problem here, in my viewpoint, is that prologue healing circumvents the lives system (which it does). Because the lives system is somewhat trivial at the moment (outside of lost time spent healing in the prologue), health packs aren't really necessary or impactful in any meaningful way outside of a convenience boost on a PvP run. By eliminating any out-of-fight method to heal outside of natural regeneration or health packs, the lives system becomes a force that needs to be "respected" by the player base as it becomes meaningful again.

-- Lower level/stared characters have the advantage of requiring less time to naturally regen. Outside of Thor/Ares/Moonstone, all of the 2**s possess considerably less health than most 3***s, and can naturally regenerate faster. This also creates a considerable downside to one of the current meta of bringing the meatiest tank you can to every fight. Suddenly, that 10 hour regen time on Modern Thor's 8700 health is a potential liability.

-- I can't see CMag's blue hanging around in its current form much longer. I am highly suspicious that the current prize awards of CMags from Fresh Cut and Patch from Starfall is "random". In all likelihood, the devs are looking to see how hard players fall back on the CMags + Patch combo now that Spidey cannot perform his old role of a team stunlocker. The data will likely show mass scaling still occurring to those using this combo, and without the Spidey confounding factor will likely send the evidence required that CMags still needs to be nerfed.

-- On that note, I can see CMags's blue simply be retweaked like this as a result (arbitrary numbers used):

Magnetized Field: 6 Blue AP

Level 1: Places two random defense tiles of strength 50 on any basic tile.
Level 2: Defense tile strength increased by 25%.
Level 3: Places two chosen defense tiles on any basic tile. Costs 2 AP more. (Allow for crit creation, but at increased cost to discourage behavior and to prevent infinite casting).
Level 4: Defense tile strength increased by 25%.
Level 5: Places two chosen defense tiles on any tile. Costs 2 AP more. (Allows for current functionality, but at a very significant cost. 10 AP is 4-match territory).

-- If as a result of these changes, health points become a new scarce commodity, would defense suddenly become part of the meta? How valuable would not losing health in fights become?

-- Inspired thought of the night: Consider the Spider-Man "nerf". What if he really wasn't nerfed at all? What if he was really changed into his current form with the these upcoming changes in mind? In his new form, he can heal incoming damage and act as a 3*** Bullesye to prevent damage from being incurred. Wouldn't that make him quite valuable if these changes go into effect in a manner even somewhat close to what I conjectured?

This suggested nerf to Magneto would constitute a character killing nerf worse than Rags or Spiderman. The main reason 95% of people use cmag is his blue allows them several consecutive match 4/5s. His red is decent but not a reason to use him on its own and his purple hits hard but has drawbacks and reliance on there being many blue/red to begin with (and his blue ends up clearing many blue from the board how it's currently used) Choosing between 3-5 red and 3-5 purple makes one very ordinary and the other pretty nice. If D3 wants everyone to take more damage, people will eventually stop playing because no one wants to be cut off at every successful turn. His red and blue would need drastic changes such as making his blue function like GSBW's purple and his red function like storm's green if people were to still use him with a blue change.

Additionally - buying HP just isn't an option for me. Ever. I'd rather walk away completely - If they were on sale for ISO similar to buffs maybe people wouldn't mind but requiring HP for health packs after removing all our healing or sustainability options is such a clear money grab that it would signal time to try out that folder with 50-100 free/cheap game downloads crying to be played

Unknown

With the spidey nerf, I don't see any need to change prologue healing as many others have noted (time and amt healed). I also am not a fan of insta-heals as taking damage does require some thoughts vs continually roll with high health characters. I do like the goal of more roster diversity but can you imagine using your 1* and 2* rosters for first 400 points and then shift to others to grind higher. Only problem is will you be appreciating roster diversity once you lvl 85 team gets beat 1 day later and you lose -40 pts. The reason why people roll with high level rosters is to reduce the risk of point loss not turn pvp to a shield hop beginning at 300 pts.

A new pvp play mechanic is needed. Maybe instead of just progression rewards, hitting pvp tiers (I.e. 500 you get 2 pts: 900 you get 3 pts: 1100 you get 5 pts) has a rolling point accumulation system wherein after hitting 50pts a new challenge mode is unlocked and a series of simulator like battles for iso prizes and extras and they can have forced or limited rosters for each challenge match). So a new event opens up for this. Not sure if that makes sense.

Tl; dr - prologue healing needs no further nerf; a new play mechanic instead would be welcomed.