Off topic discussion of card gaming, board games and other stuff

System

This discussion was created from comments split from: Moon Knight obviously not today....

bbigler

TheEyeDoctorsWife said:

Chirus said:

What I'm curious about is how difficult is it to win games without those "meta" characters? I'd feel less anxious about leveling 5 stars if I didn't hear so many horror stories about how PVP is "ruined" unless you play with Shang/Okoye/Apoc. 

That’s a myth. You can win with hundreds of combinations. The horror stories are from either A) speed fanboys who think the object of the game isn’t to win but to play as little as possible or B )players with no desire or imagination to experiment new combinations but just become a meta cloner.

Also, that’s the thing I despise about Magic the Gathering players, because most of them are “meta cloners” who have no sense of originality or even fun.  The fun of the game is to design, acquire and play your own decks.  Copying and winning with someone else’s deck isn’t very satisfying.  I’ve won events both ways, but winning with your own original idea is 100 times better.  

Since this is a trend I’ve seen in many areas, I suppose the flaw in human nature is a desire to feed your ego by being on top no matter how you got there.  Why do people cheat?  It’s not satisfying because they don’t deserve it, but I think they are simply trying to feed their ego.  Which reveals their own insecurities.

Chirus

bbigler said:

TheEyeDoctorsWife said:

Chirus said:

What I'm curious about is how difficult is it to win games without those "meta" characters? I'd feel less anxious about leveling 5 stars if I didn't hear so many horror stories about how PVP is "ruined" unless you play with Shang/Okoye/Apoc. 

That’s a myth. You can win with hundreds of combinations. The horror stories are from either A) speed fanboys who think the object of the game isn’t to win but to play as little as possible or B )players with no desire or imagination to experiment new combinations but just become a meta cloner.

Also, that’s the thing I despise about Magic the Gathering players, because most of them are “meta cloners” who have no sense of originality or even fun.  The fun of the game is to design, acquire and play your own decks.  Copying and winning with someone else’s deck isn’t very satisfying.  I’ve won events both ways, but winning with your own original idea is 100 times better.  

Since this is a trend I’ve seen in many areas, I suppose the flaw in human nature is a desire to feed your ego by being on top no matter how you got there.  Why do people cheat?  It’s not satisfying because they don’t deserve it, but I think they are simply trying to feed their ego.  Which reveals their own insecurities.

I think you're talking about a certain subset of Magic players. I think they're called spikes. And on that part, I do agree with you. As far as competitive Magic is concerned, there are also various draft formats that ensure each game is different, and players are forced to come up with creative solutions using a limited card pool. This also happens to be my favorite game mode because you can't simply choose the "meta" deck every time. But there's a skill to proper drafting techniques, and it makes the actual deckbuilding part of the game something you regularly interact with. It's for this reason that having a draft mode is basically a requirement for me when trying out a new card game. Because once the meta is established, you're playing with the same few decks all the time, as you said.

Beefhammer69

bbigler said:

TheEyeDoctorsWife said:

Chirus said:

What I'm curious about is how difficult is it to win games without those "meta" characters? I'd feel less anxious about leveling 5 stars if I didn't hear so many horror stories about how PVP is "ruined" unless you play with Shang/Okoye/Apoc. 

That’s a myth. You can win with hundreds of combinations. The horror stories are from either A) speed fanboys who think the object of the game isn’t to win but to play as little as possible or B )players with no desire or imagination to experiment new combinations but just become a meta cloner.

Also, that’s the thing I despise about Magic the Gathering players, because most of them are “meta cloners” who have no sense of originality or even fun.  The fun of the game is to design, acquire and play your own decks.  Copying and winning with someone else’s deck isn’t very satisfying.  I’ve won events both ways, but winning with your own original idea is 100 times better.  

Since this is a trend I’ve seen in many areas, I suppose the flaw in human nature is a desire to feed your ego by being on top no matter how you got there.  Why do people cheat?  It’s not satisfying because they don’t deserve it, but I think they are simply trying to feed their ego.  Which reveals their own insecurities.

Wow, it’s almost like different people have different ideas of what fun is? You don’t like to play the way I play so you’re a *insert string of demeaning insults*. I guess you’re simply trying to feed your ego by saying your way is the best way though, which reveals your own insecurities. (See how ridiculous I sound?) 

bbigler

Beefhammer69 said:

bbigler said:

TheEyeDoctorsWife said:

Chirus said:

What I'm curious about is how difficult is it to win games without those "meta" characters? I'd feel less anxious about leveling 5 stars if I didn't hear so many horror stories about how PVP is "ruined" unless you play with Shang/Okoye/Apoc. 

That’s a myth. You can win with hundreds of combinations. The horror stories are from either A) speed fanboys who think the object of the game isn’t to win but to play as little as possible or B )players with no desire or imagination to experiment new combinations but just become a meta cloner.

Also, that’s the thing I despise about Magic the Gathering players, because most of them are “meta cloners” who have no sense of originality or even fun.  The fun of the game is to design, acquire and play your own decks.  Copying and winning with someone else’s deck isn’t very satisfying.  I’ve won events both ways, but winning with your own original idea is 100 times better.  

Since this is a trend I’ve seen in many areas, I suppose the flaw in human nature is a desire to feed your ego by being on top no matter how you got there.  Why do people cheat?  It’s not satisfying because they don’t deserve it, but I think they are simply trying to feed their ego.  Which reveals their own insecurities.

Wow, it’s almost like different people have different ideas of what fun is? You don’t like to play the way I play so you’re a *insert string of demeaning insults*. I guess you’re simply trying to feed your ego by saying your way is the best way though, which reveals your own insecurities. (See how ridiculous I sound?) 

Are you actually defending being a meta cloner? It takes no skill or intelligence to copy someone else.  If you think that’s fun, then I guess your standards are lower than mine.  

DAZ0273

Moon Knight is obviously caught in two (or more) minds about whether he wants to come and play, hopefully Khonshu can sort him out soon.

I don't know anything about Magic:The Gathering, not even what a "net decker" is although I can take a stab at it but how easy is it to get meta cards in the game? Is there a regular turnover of what decks rule? One of the things about MPQ is that sometimes we have long spells of teams being on top and then we get two meta releases one after the other and these things can shape the game. A lot of that depends on the Devs and how often they either shake things up on purpose or create characters that players adapt into being meta. Is it like that in M:TG or does it flow differently? Also does M:TG have a similar sort of hoarding strategy to it?

Sorry - back to your regularly scheduled Moon Knight updates: Moon Knight has NOT appeared in his Moonjet...yet.

UNC_Samurai

You kids and your “net decking”. In my day, we had to wait for the latest issue of Scrye or Inquest to publish tournament winning decks and hope the local shop had copies of the Ice Age cards we needed to build Necro or Ernham & BurnEm.

MegaBee

DAZ0273 said:

I don't know anything about Magic:The Gathering, not even what a "net decker" is although I can take a stab at it but how easy is it to get meta cards in the game? Is there a regular turnover of what decks rule? One of the things about MPQ is that sometimes we have long spells of teams being on top and then we get two meta releases one after the other and these things can shape the game. A lot of that depends on the Devs and how often they either shake things up on purpose or create characters that players adapt into being meta. Is it like that in M:TG or does it flow differently? Also does M:TG have a similar sort of hoarding strategy to it?

Sorry - back to your regularly scheduled Moon Knight updates: Moon Knight has NOT appeared in his Moonjet...yet.

It's been a while since I played MTG, and I was never particularly competitive, but my experience was that any meta card was available if you had enough money to throw at it. There was always a Jace, the Mind Sculptor available on eBay if you were willing to pay for it.

TheEyeDoctorsWife

I don’t know what MTG is , but my husband said it was what nerds did before I was born , prior to the internet . Guys still living in their parents’ basement would invite other players over for face to face PvP with card decks. Was this the Stone Age ?  ( He also said Dungeon and Dragons was even worse and you usually were on lithium to get into that)

DAZ0273

MegaBee said:

DAZ0273 said:

I don't know anything about Magic:The Gathering, not even what a "net decker" is although I can take a stab at it but how easy is it to get meta cards in the game? Is there a regular turnover of what decks rule? One of the things about MPQ is that sometimes we have long spells of teams being on top and then we get two meta releases one after the other and these things can shape the game. A lot of that depends on the Devs and how often they either shake things up on purpose or create characters that players adapt into being meta. Is it like that in M:TG or does it flow differently? Also does M:TG have a similar sort of hoarding strategy to it?

Sorry - back to your regularly scheduled Moon Knight updates: Moon Knight has NOT appeared in his Moonjet...yet.

It's been a while since I played MTG, and I was never particularly competitive, but my experience was that any meta card was available if you had enough money to throw at it. There was always a Jace, the Mind Sculptor available on eBay if you were willing to pay for it.

So proper pay to win stuff. It sounds way more complicated than MPQ but at the same time easier to do well at if you have the cash and like it a lot. My youngest got into Yu-Gi-Oh for about 2 months which I think isn't a million miles apart (cue lots of angry M:TG players telling me how wrong I am) and I once tried to play a game with him as I had seen the cartoon and had a basic understanding. Except, no I didn't, the rules were indecipherable and I had no clue what was going on. What does my Dark Magician do again?!??! In the cartoon he just sort'a zaps things! Not here it seems. M:TG sounds a bit like that I think. Or it could just be that I just suck I guess.

Bad

Without guys living on parent's basement playing supermario the videogame industry never would scalate to the best consoles moving the most amazing amounts of money and finally jumping to the freemium games you can install in your mobile.
So respect ancient nerds living on parent's basement and venerate them accordingly.
They were the brave pioneers.

Beefhammer69

bbigler said:

Beefhammer69 said:

bbigler said:

TheEyeDoctorsWife said:

Chirus said:

What I'm curious about is how difficult is it to win games without those "meta" characters? I'd feel less anxious about leveling 5 stars if I didn't hear so many horror stories about how PVP is "ruined" unless you play with Shang/Okoye/Apoc. 

That’s a myth. You can win with hundreds of combinations. The horror stories are from either A) speed fanboys who think the object of the game isn’t to win but to play as little as possible or B )players with no desire or imagination to experiment new combinations but just become a meta cloner.

Also, that’s the thing I despise about Magic the Gathering players, because most of them are “meta cloners” who have no sense of originality or even fun.  The fun of the game is to design, acquire and play your own decks.  Copying and winning with someone else’s deck isn’t very satisfying.  I’ve won events both ways, but winning with your own original idea is 100 times better.  

Since this is a trend I’ve seen in many areas, I suppose the flaw in human nature is a desire to feed your ego by being on top no matter how you got there.  Why do people cheat?  It’s not satisfying because they don’t deserve it, but I think they are simply trying to feed their ego.  Which reveals their own insecurities.

Wow, it’s almost like different people have different ideas of what fun is? You don’t like to play the way I play so you’re a *insert string of demeaning insults*. I guess you’re simply trying to feed your ego by saying your way is the best way though, which reveals your own insecurities. (See how ridiculous I sound?) 

Are you actually defending being a meta cloner? It takes no skill or intelligence to copy someone else.  If you think that’s fun, then I guess your standards are lower than mine.  

So now you’ve doubled down on being the authority of how people enjoy their games, sorry to disturb you Mr Putin. I like winning, you like coming up with creative teams. Guess what, both of those types of players can co-exist and neither is wrong. 

DAZ0273

TheEyeDoctorsWife said:

I don’t know what MTG is , but my husband said it was what nerds did before I was born , prior to the internet . Guys still living in their parents’ basement would invite other players over for face to face PvP with card decks. Was this the Stone Age ?  ( He also said Dungeon and Dragons was even worse and you usually were on lithium to get into that)

Your husband sure does know a lot about all this stuff! You can mock it all you like but I just looked at the wikipedia entry and as of December 2018 there were approximately 35 million players. That is a hell of a lot of "nerds". I don't think Dungeons & Dragons is the same thing though? I have never played it that I remember but I don't think it is a card game? And quite honestly, M:TG is physically no different to collecting baseball or football/soccer cards from what I can see except I guess it might be more fun as it is an actual game?

I'm not sure I can take any sort of superior stance on this stuff when I am on a website posting in a thread about a guy called Moon Knight who fights crime in some bandages whilst looking forward to the release of an evil squid supervillain.

KGB

TheEyeDoctorsWife said:

I don’t know what MTG is , but my husband said it was what nerds did before I was born , prior to the internet . Guys still living in their parents’ basement would invite other players over for face to face PvP with card decks. Was this the Stone Age ?  ( He also said Dungeon and Dragons was even worse and you usually were on lithium to get into that)

Was your husband alive during these times and participating in these things he's speaking to you about?

To be fair, getting together in person was the *only* way to socialize in those days (positively stone age I'm sure). I never played MTG, but I fondly remember having friends over for drinks and playing Risk or Axis and Allies or card games like Euchre before heading out to the bars later that night (and no, I was not living in my parents basement, I was a college student or a young 20 something in my 1st job back then living with roommates).

KGB

bbigler

UNC_Samurai said:

You kids and your “net decking”. In my day, we had to wait for the latest issue of Scrye or Inquest to publish tournament winning decks and hope the local shop had copies of the Ice Age cards we needed to build Necro or Ernham & BurnEm.

I was there too during Ice Age.  It felt like I was blazing the trail for the game since it was new and nobody heard of it.  When Mirage came out, I read about the Cadaverous Bloom-Prosperity deck and copied it.  It was fun to play and I took it to a local tournament and won First place.  But that was an empty win - I didn’t deserve it.  Ever since I vowed to create my own decks and see how well I could do in tournaments with them.  I despised all the people that just copied the top tournament decks; I had no respect for them.  

But it was very satisfying beating the top decks with my own creations - even if I didn’t make top 8.  That’s what Magic should be about: being creative, doing the best you can with your limited pool of cards, trying it out and seeing what happens.  But I was not a poor Magic player; I spent thousands of dollars getting the best cards and thousands of hours designing and testing decks.  I’m very competitive, but I will not copy someone else.  Sometimes I’ll independently discover a top tournament deck on my own - like Sliver.  

I’m mentioning all this because it applies to this game too.  Of course, there are differences.  You can’t get a top MPQ character by spending $100 or even $1000.  It takes time, dedication and skill for that.  But everyone is free to be as creative as they want with their limited pool of characters.  You can choose to copy everyone else and play the way they do, but what’s the point?  It’s a mindless exercise.  It may be exciting at first, getting better placement, but over time that excitement wears off.  

Anyway, to try to keep this on topic, I’m hoping the devs announce soon when MK will enter.  I have a hoard to break.  

UNC_Samurai

bbigler said:

Cadaverous Bloom-Prosperity deck 

Prosper-Bloom.  Now that is a deck I have not heard of, in a long time.  A long time.

/That decklist is old enough to rent a car this summer.

bbigler

UNC_Samurai said:

bbigler said:

Cadaverous Bloom-Prosperity deck 

Prosper-Bloom.  Now that is a deck I have not heard of, in a long time.  A long time.

/That decklist is old enough to rent a car this summer.

I started playing in 1995, but quit in 2002 and sold my cards.  It’s crazy how much they are worth now.  It would be enough to buy a new car.  Unfortunately, my baseball card collection is worthless.  But I still kept some special Magic cards, like the ones signed by Richard Garfield.  

MegaBee

TIL that Off-Topic was a thing that exists.

TheEyeDoctorsWife

KGB said:

TheEyeDoctorsWife said:

I don’t know what MTG is , but my husband said it was what nerds did before I was born , prior to the internet . Guys still living in their parents’ basement would invite other players over for face to face PvP with card decks. Was this the Stone Age ?  ( He also said Dungeon and Dragons was even worse and you usually were on lithium to get into that)

Was your husband alive during these times and participating in these things he's speaking to you about?

To be fair, getting together in person was the *only* way to socialize in those days (positively stone age I'm sure). I never played MTG, but I fondly remember having friends over for drinks and playing Risk or Axis and Allies or card games like Euchre before heading out to the bars later that night (and no, I was not living in my parents basement, I was a college student or a young 20 something in my 1st job back then living with roommates).

KGB

Yes, he would have been alive then. The only thing he knew about it was the store he bought his comics at had a weekend tournament room for the game . Said he never got involved , he probably got a lot of F’s in “Plays well with others “. I know  Risk and Euchre though .