So there are now 64 5* characters ...

Aweberman

Well, technically, there are currently 66 with Abby Brand and Elektra.  But we are nearing the 64th retiring from Latest Legends tokens in a few weeks.

Upon the release of the 64th 4* character in March 2018, I ran a tournament here on the forums to determine which was the best.  I constructed a thematic bracket, then ran a series of polls where people just voted for which of a set of two characters was better.  (Spoiler alert: It was Captain Marvel by a 3-1 margin over Vulture in the final.)

One of the significant downsides of that tournament was by being here on the forums there wasn't heavy participation; most rounds only had about 100-120 votes (though we probably got to a decent consensus just off of that).  Another significant strike against it was how much of a no-brainer many of the early matches were (see: Riri v. Sam Wilson or America v. Sandman).

Big Wheel was the 64th 5* character to be released, and when he rotates out of Latests, those who are keeping up with new releases will probably have him champed.  So that seems like a good time to run a tournament for which 5* is the best.

Last time I sort of generated all of this in-house, bouncing some ideas off a few members of my alliance.  But this time I'd like to throw the door open to some wider cooperation and suggestions from some other members of the community.  Basically, there are two items that I'd like to get some feedback on:

1.) How should the bracket be organized?
It appeals to me to just seed the characters in released order.  So your first bracket would be Silver Surfer v. OML and the last bracket would be Sersi v. Big Wheel.  The advantage to this method is that you don't have too many dud first-round matches.  The major disadvantage is that some "regions" of 16 are more densely-populated with great characters than others -- I don't think anybody will be too impressed with the representative of the first "subregion" of 8 (Surfer, OML, Phoenix, BSSM, Green Goblin, IM46, FACap, Bruce), but maybe that's okay.  (Of course, this method also pits Okoye v. Wasp in the first round.)

Another option is to take a pass at ranking them ahead of time, then slot them into the bracket and see if the community agrees.  (This might also pit Okoye v. Wasp in round 1.)

A third option is to group them thematically like I did for the 4* tournament to sort of split the difference.

I'm sure there are other options, and I'd be interested in reading the pros and cons.

2.) How should the voting be done?
I would prefer not to use the forum.  I'm sure there are many services out there that could be used; one I found is at https://www.poll-maker.com/.  I am really open to ideas on this one, as it seems like it would be easy to get wrong.

My target start date for this endeavor is April 4th, the date that Big Wheel leaves tokens.  So I have about four weeks to get this thing set up, publicized, and running.

I have a long day at work tomorrow, so I may not be able to devote time to long posts in response, but I look forward to hearing what anybody who's interested in contributing ideas has to say.

fight4thedream

I don't think it's necessary to design the tournament under one principle, such as sticking strictly to release order. Have fun with it! My only suggestion is to try to avoid stacking a bracket with meta characters and instead try to spread them between the four main brackets. Then fill in the rest with matches that you think would be interesting to see either because of power set or Marvel universe-lore. 

For example, I came up with the following brackets sticking mainly to my own personal headcanon:

Bracket A
1. Apocalypse
2. Cable
3. Rescue
4. Archangel
5. God Emperor Doom
6. Doctor Octopus
7. Black Widow
8. Yelena Belova
9. Onslaught 
10. Captain America First Avenger
11. Big Wheel 
12. Peter Parker Spider-man
13. Jean Grey
14. Cyclops
15. Magneto 
16. Professor X

Bracket B
17. Black Panther
18. Killmonger
19. Dr. Strange
20. Okoye
21. Deadpool
22. Samurai Wolverine
23. Electro
24. Green Goblin
25. OML
26. Wasp
27. Immortal Hulk
28. The Hulk (Bruce Banner)
29. Thanos
30. Gamora
31. Silver Surfer
32. Thor

Bracket C
33. Beta Ray Bill
34. Captain Marvel
35. Star Lord
36. Ronan
37. Knull
38. Gambit
39. Adam Warlock
40. Carnage
41. Odin
42. Hela
43. Kitty Pryde
44. Ghost Rider 
45. Jessica Jones
46. Hawkeye
47. Daredevil
48. Kingpin

Bracket D
49. Mr. Sinister
50. Havok
51. Ultron
52. Scarlet Witch
53. Colossus
54. Black Bolt
55. Heimdall
56. Loki
57. Iceman
58. Storm
59. Yellowjacket
60. Sersi
61. Infinity War Captain America
62. Iron Man
63. Black Suit Spider-Man
64. Shang-Chi

Basically, it's a hodgepodge of: 1. consciously separating top meta characters, 2. building a narrative around their matches, 3. mixing in battles based on lore (e.g. Thor vs Surfer, DD vs Kingpin, Black Widow vs Yelena, Star-Lord vs Ronan) where there was space for it. 

Anyway looking forward to the tournament! 

Bad

Well 4 years have been passed and participation it's not the same so there will be less yet.
Also there are now 2 major worldwide crisis which comunism has brought(covid and war), so that brings it down further the joy.
I'm saying that because I think a tournament designed for to be too long or voting it in another plataform won't have too much success, imo.
I would design it for to vote it 3 times at maximum.
Also I would define well the question on which 5* is the best or which 5* has the most perfect toolkit. On the first case okoye or kitty will win.

5*s are not like 4*s and they are used by less people, many people even couldn't know what things some characters do.

I think the brakets idea is good for to vote it on less times.

helix72

Here's one suggestion. There's an online spreadsheet where people rate 5* toons. I simply took them and put them in brackets based on their rank order, which then also ranked them within their respective brackets. I do like the idea of doing something more thematic with the brackets (e.g. villains, heroes, mutants, etc), but that will take a bit more work and time. So for a first suggestion:

Bracket A
Seed	Toon
1	5★ Kitty Pryde (Uncanny X-Men)
2	5★ Scarlet Witch (WandaVision)
3	5★ Shang-Chi (Origin)
4	5★ Jessica Jones (Alias Investigations)
5	5★ Thanos (The Mad Titan)
6	5★ Adam Warlock (Infinity Watch)
7	5★ Hawkeye (Clint Barton)
8	5★ Killmonger (Erik Stevens)
9	5★ Big Wheel (Jackson Weele)
10	5★ Hela (Goddess of Death)
11	5★ Wolverine (Old Man Logan)
12	5★ Spider-Man (Peter Parker)
13	5★ Gambit (Classic)
14	5★ Black Widow (Natasha Romanoff)
15	5★ Star-Lord (Awesome Mix Volume 2)
16	5★ Wasp (Hope van Dyne)
Bracket B
Seed	Toon
1	5★ Okoye (Warrior General)
2	5★ Professor X (Classic)
3	5★ Thor (Gladiator)
4	5★ Electro (Francine Frye)
5	5★ Ronan (The Accuser)
6	5★ Sersi (Eternals)
7	5★ Daredevil (Matt Murdock)
8	5★ Storm (Ororo Munroe)
9	5★ Ultron (Age of Ultron)
10	5★ Heimdall (The Gatekeeper)
11	5★ Yelena Belova (Black Widow)
12	5★ Wolverine (Samurai Daken)
13	5★ Magneto (Age of Apocalypse)
14	5★ Loki (God of Mischief)
15	5★ Iron Man (Mark XLVI)
16	5★ The Hulk (Bruce Banner)
Bracket C
Seed	Toon
1	5★ Beta Ray Bill (Korbinite Cyborg)
2	5★ The Hulk (Immortal)
3	5★ Onslaught (Psionic Entity)
4	5★ Knull (King In Black)
5	5★ Yellowjacket (Darren Cross)
6	5★ Doctor Doom (God Emperor)
7	5★ Odin (All-Father)
8	5★ Black Bolt (Inhuman King)
9	5★ Cyclops (Phoenix Five)
10	5★ Jean Grey (Phoenix)
11	5★ Cable (Nathan Summers)
12	5★ Captain Marvel (Galactic Warrior)
13	5★ Captain America (Infinity War)
14	5★ Archangel (Classic)
15	5★ Captain America (First Avenger)
16	5★ Doctor Octopus (Classic)
Bracket D
Seed	Toon
1	5★ Apocalypse (Classic)
2	5★ Colossus (Phoenix Five)
3	5★ Iceman (Bobby Drake)
4	5★ Carnage (Prophet of Knull)
5	5★ Doctor Strange (Sorcerer Supreme)
6	5★ Deadpool (Spirit of Vengeance)
7	5★ Gamora (Deadliest Woman)
8	5★ Black Panther (Civil War)
9	5★ Ghost Rider (Robbie Reyes)
10	5★ Havok (Classic)
11	5★ Spider-Man (Back in Black)
12	5★ Green Goblin (Norman Osborn)
13	5★ Mister Sinister (Nathaniel Essex)
14	5★ Silver Surfer (Skyrider)
15	5★ Rescue (Pepper Potts)
16	5★ Kingpin (Spider-Verse)

ThaRoadWarrior

My vote is that Shang-Chi is the best single 5*, team dynamics in a vacuum. If you factor in Team stuff it may be apocalypse/Okoye/Kitty but I’m open to debate there.

HoundofShadow

SC easily wins the entire tournament. A close second would be Apocalypse.

helix72

Here's a second cut. I wanted to incorporate Daredevil's rankings because I believe they are more accurate and more up to date, but his list is missing Big Wheel and Sersi so I used the relative positioning they had in the spreadsheet. I like this breakout better:

Bracket A
Seed	Toon
1	Apocalypse (Classic)
2	Shang-Chi (Origin)
3	The Hulk (Immortal)
4	Thanos (The Mad Titan)
5	Iceman (Bobby Drake)
6	Yelena Belova (Black Widow)
7	Heimdall (The Gatekeeper)
8	Ghost Rider (Robbie Reyes)
9	Big Wheel (Jackson Weele)
10	Spider-Man (Back In Black)
11	Ultron (Age of Ultron)
12	Jean Grey (Phoenix)
13	Black Panther (Civil War)
14	Captain Marvel (Galactic Warrior)
15	Rescue (Pepper Potts)
16	The Wasp (Hope Van Dyne)
Bracket B
Seed	Toon
1	Okoye (Warrior General)
2	Kitty Pryde (Uncanny X-Men)
3	Professor X (Classic)
4	Deadpool (Spirit of Vengeance)
5	Killmonger (Erik Stevens)
6	Sersi (Eternals)
7	Storm (Ororo Munroe)
8	Havok (Classic)
9	Gamora (Deadliest Woman)
10	Green Goblin (Norman Osborn)
11	Hawkeye (Clint Barton)
12	Captain America (Infinity War)
13	Loki (God Of Mischief)
14	Captain America (First Avenger)
15	Star-Lord (Awesome Mix Volume 2)
16	The Hulk (Bruce Banner)
Bracket C
Seed	Toon
1	Scarlet Witch (WandaVision)
2	Beta Ray Bill (Korbinite Warrior)
3	Onslaught (Psionic Entity)
4	Daredevil (Matt Murdock)
5	Ronan (The Accuser)
6	Knull (King In Black)
7	Electro (Francine Frye)
8	Doctor Strange (Sorcerer Supreme)
9	Hela (Goddess Of Death)
10	Mister Sinister (Nathaniel Essex)
11	Archangel (Classic)
12	Black Bolt (Inhuman King)
13	Gambit (Classic)
14	Silver Surfer (Skyrider)
15	Doctor Octopus (Classic)
16	Iron Man (Mark XLVI)
Bracket D
Seed	Toon
1	Thor (Gladiator)
2	Colossus (Phoenix Five)
3	Carnage (Prophet of Knull)
4	Doctor Doom (God Emperor)
5	Yellowjacket (Darren Cross)
6	Jessica Jones (Alias Investigations)
7	Cyclops (Phoenix Five)
8	Adam Warlock (Infinity Watch)
9	Spider-Man (Peter Parker)
10	Wolverine (Samurai Daken)
11	Magneto (Age of Apocalypse)
12	Odin (All-Father)
13	Wolverine (Old Man Logan)
14	Cable (Nathan Summers)
15	Black Widow (Natasha Romanoff)
16	Kingpin (Spider-Verse)

Aweberman

@helix72 So the idea there is you have a general ranking of 1-64, and then the characters ranked 1-4 are #1 seeds, 5-8 are #2 seeds, etc.?

bbigler

I’m confused by this entire thread

Yepyep

Aweberman said:

@helix72 So the idea there is you have a general ranking of 1-64, and then the characters ranked 1-4 are #1 seeds, 5-8 are #2 seeds, etc.?

Yes, I think that's their approach, which mimics the NCAA tournament's bracket structure. This is a sound approach,

The idea of bracketing them simply by release date has some appeal, though. Their relative strengths at release will allow some early favorites to get a little further along. But, ultimately, a tournament is about the strong, and @helix72 's idea makes sense.

bbigler said:

I’m confused by this entire thread

It's a college basketball thing.

helix72

Aweberman said:

@helix72 So the idea there is you have a general ranking of 1-64, and then the characters ranked 1-4 are #1 seeds, 5-8 are #2 seeds, etc.?

Exactly. So each character is ranked 1-64 then "snake drafted" into each bracket. So bracket A gets the 1, 8, 9, 16, etc picks, but within that bracket 1 is 1, 8 is 2, 9 is 3, etc. So Apoc is #1 overall and Shang is #8 overall making them #1 and #2 in their bracket. I recognize that could create some unfair matchups because in Bracket A the 1 and 2 seeds are actually 1 and 8 and in Bracket D the 1 and 2 seeds are actually 4 and 5. It wouldn't be that hard to make it a straight draft (1 and 5, 2 and 6, etc) and that would look like this:

Bracket A
Seed	Toon
1	Apocalypse (Classic)
2	Colossus (Phoenix Five)
3	The Hulk (Immortal)
4	Doctor Doom (God Emperor)
5	Iceman (Bobby Drake)
6	Jessica Jones (Alias Investigations)
7	Heimdall (The Gatekeeper)
8	Adam Warlock (Infinity Watch)
9	Big Wheel (Jackson Weele)
10	Wolverine (Samurai Daken)
11	Ultron (Age of Ultron)
12	Odin (All-Father)
13	Black Panther (Civil War)
14	Cable (Nathan Summers)
15	Rescue (Pepper Potts)
16	Kingpin (Spider-Verse)
Bracket B
Seed	Toon
1	Okoye (Warrior General)
2	Beta Ray Bill (Korbinite Warrior)
3	Professor X (Classic)
4	Daredevil (Matt Murdock)
5	Killmonger (Erik Stevens)
6	Knull (King In Black)
7	Storm (Ororo Munroe)
8	Doctor Strange (Sorcerer Supreme)
9	Gamora (Deadliest Woman)
10	Mister Sinister (Nathaniel Essex)
11	Hawkeye (Clint Barton)
12	Black Bolt (Inhuman King)
13	Loki (God Of Mischief)
14	Silver Surfer (Skyrider)
15	Star-Lord (Awesome Mix Volume 2)
16	Iron Man (Mark XLVI)
Bracket C
Seed	Toon
1	Scarlet Witch (WandaVision)
2	Kitty Pryde (Uncanny X-Men)
3	Onslaught (Psionic Entity)
4	Deadpool (Spirit of Vengeance)
5	Ronan (The Accuser)
6	Sersi (Eternals)
7	Electro (Francine Frye)
8	Havok (Classic)
9	Hela (Goddess Of Death)
10	Green Goblin (Norman Osborn)
11	Archangel (Classic)
12	Captain America (Infinity War)
13	Gambit (Classic)
14	Captain America (First Avenger)
15	Doctor Octopus (Classic)
16	The Hulk (Bruce Banner)
Bracket D
Seed	Toon
1	Thor (Gladiator)
2	Shang-Chi (Origin)
3	Carnage (Prophet of Knull)
4	Thanos (The Mad Titan)
5	Yellowjacket (Darren Cross)
6	Yelena Belova (Black Widow)
7	Cyclops (Phoenix Five)
8	Ghost Rider (Robbie Reyes)
9	Spider-Man (Peter Parker)
10	Spider-Man (Back In Black)
11	Magneto (Age of Apocalypse)
12	Jean Grey (Phoenix)
13	Wolverine (Old Man Logan)
14	Captain Marvel (Galactic Warrior)
15	Black Widow (Natasha Romanoff)
16	The Wasp (Hope Van Dyne)

Aweberman

Yepyep said:

The idea of bracketing them simply by release date has some appeal, though. Their relative strengths at release will allow some early favorites to get a little further along.

Just to compare the top 8 mentioned by helix72, here they are by order of release:

20 Thor
25 Okoye
28 Kitty Pryde
39 Beta Ray Bill
44 Apocalypse
54 Colossus
55 Scarlet Witch
60 Shang-Chi

So the first region would not have any of the top 8 (Thanos is highest-ranked in the post immediately above this one, at #16), whereas Thor, Okoye, and Kitty would be crowded into the same region, and Colossus and Scarlet Witch would likely encounter each other in the second round (after the former dispensed with Cyclops and the latter surpassed Knull).

Yepyep

Personally, I kind of like the idea of people having to choose between Colossus and Scarlet Witch early. It sharpens the knives.

Aweberman

Obviously we would want the final match to be something worthy, and if the top 4 listed by helix72 (Apoc, Okoye, Wanda, Thor) were to win out, three of them would be in that final 4.  Apoc and Wanda would be on one side, with the winner of Okoye/Thor from the elite 8 alongside one of the first 16.