Character Rebalance - **** War Machine (James Rhodes) ****

Vhailorx

HoundofShadow said:

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I think the forum players' philosophy are: ap cost must be cheap (<9aps), deal high damage, has low risk,  repeaters or cd must be 1-turn and fortified, easy to use (whether one can netflix while matching) etc.

The goal of rebalances is not to make them meta, but rather to make them more usable, and retaining those design characteristics if possible, based on past rebalances. Again, "More usable" can be subjective, depending on the criteria one uses. 

I don't see many people here advocating that all new powers have all (or even just one) of those characteristics -- I certainly am not doing so -- but you *have* listed the characteristics of good powers in mpq, and there are already many many such powers in the game. When new powers come out and don't meet those standards, especially when a new character's entire kit meets none of those standards, it is perfectly fair for players to evaluate them as "not good." That's not a personal bias or an entitled mindset or any of the other common complaints I see here.

and if the goal of the rebalance is to meet a subjective goal, then what's the point? Just poll the playerbase until you find someone who is happy with the character as is, declare victory, and go home!

HoundofShadow

You are merely reducing the act of MPQ to winning matches. The end goal is indeed winning matches. But there's another aspect.

I'm sure many are familiar with this saying "It's the journey, not the destination".

There are many ways to win a match. Wanting only meta mechanics is one of the way, and not the only way. There are many other ways of winning. All can coexists. 

HoundofShadow

I'm not saying characters must have all those powers, but that's the typical criteria for characters with such powers that involve those mechanics. If every power start meeting the good standard, does good exist? It will turn to average because everything looks the same. When things look the same, what do you think would be the next suggestions? It must be better and the bar keep increasing and players talk about dev allowing power creeps, when it looks like it's the players who want power creeps to creep up even faster. 

It's impossible to make every players with every releases or rebalances. It's because all of us have our own biases and they can contradict one another. The point of rebalances is to do some tweaking. For players who expect powerful mechanics, this rebalance is bad and a waste of time.

So, what's the point of this rebalance? It's to make someone out there happy.

Vhailorx

HoundofShadow said:

I'm not saying characters must have all those powers, but that's the typical criteria for characters with such powers that involve those mechanics. If every power start meeting the good standard, does good exist? It will turn to average because everything looks the same. When things look the same, what do you think would be the next suggestions? It must be better and the bar keep increasing and players talk about dev allowing power creeps, when it looks like it's the players who want power creeps to creep up even faster. 

It's impossible to make every players with every releases or rebalances. It's because all of us have our own biases and they can contradict one another. The point of rebalances is to do some tweaking. For players who expect powerful mechanics, this rebalance is bad and a waste of time.

So, what's the point of this rebalance? It's to make someone out there happy.

Are we having the randian discussion about "specialness" from the Incredible now?

Even if I accept your final point, what's wrong with me (or some other player) coming here to express their lack of happiness about this rebalance? does the fact that it made some people happy (assuming this is true) mean that I have to be happy with it? or that WM is now good?

Vhailorx

HoundofShadow said:

You are merely reducing the act of MPQ to winning matches. The end goal is indeed winning matches. But there's another aspect.

I'm sure many are familiar with this saying "It's the journey, not the destination".

There are many ways to win a match. Wanting only meta mechanics is one of the way, and not the only way. There are many other ways of winning. All can coexists. 

Who is saying you can't have fun playing off-meta team? Does that mean there is no identifiable meta?

Also, if you really want to use the trope of "the real treasure was the friends we made along the way" I am happy to point out that "the friends we made along the [mpq] way" are most likely all the the characters we collected by playing the game and getting rewards. Rewards that you only get get for winning matches. . .

entrailbucket

I'm just so happy that someone else is making this argument, after I've made this argument about 100 times on here.  I was honestly starting to think I might be the crazy one.

entrailbucket

The game strongly incentivizes using the most powerful, fastest characters in every mode.  Speed is incredibly important in PvE obviously, and being fast in PvP is a huge advantage. 

Since the game is designed to reward fast players who use fast characters with the best rewards, aren't those players playing the game "correctly?" Isn't someone playing slowly with some non-optimal team actually violating the designers' goals?

dianetics

Placing high are player goals, not design goals.
The developers design goals are to get as many people playing as possible. So producing a wide variety of characters and catering to a wider audience is more important.
I would venture to guess a small fraction of the player base are chasing the brass ring, and most are playing for fun, amusement, or to kill time and they are not necessarily trying to compete at the highest levels.

entrailbucket

Then why does every mode have a leaderboard and placement rewards?  If they wanted a noncompetitive, casual game, they could easily have built that game.

dianetics

It's an option not a requirement. Plenty of players in my 3 older SG's just wanted to play through a little bit and were not concerned with placement at all.
There are plenty of casual supergroups that require less than daily play. Nobody ever seemed to talk about placement. Even in my alt account the people in the SG play 3-4 days a week and just kind of banter and chat in the SG channel. Not everybody is looking for the same thing.

It's an option that is there, but not everybody uses it as a metric for success.

entrailbucket

If the developers wanted competition to be an option, they could have built a game with competitive and noncompetitive modes. 

Players have begged for serious noncompetitive modes since the game launched, and we've only ever gotten DDQ, the gauntlet, puzzle gauntlet, and a few assorted one-offs.

dianetics

There's also players that don't care about placement in competitive modes at all...what's your point?
The dev's will not be able to make every player happy. The current system is only competitive if you want it to be. If you want those extra rewards then you will have to compete.

HoundofShadow

It's possible for both options to exist. It doesn't have to be an either or situation. However, it seems that you live in black and white world. The world can be colorful. 

There's nothing wrong with being unhappy with the results of rebalances. Based on past rebalances, most players are either neutral or unhappy. They are happy because they know that rebalancing is not dead. However, if you know that the criteria of dev is not to rebalance it to be powerful characters and are just small tweaks, then you will know that a lot of rebalances won't fit your criteria. Therefore, you'll be able to manage your expectation for rebalances and be less unhappy. 

Personally, I think rebalancing is quite a waste of time because it won't fit the criteria of the many of the population here Such thread usually serves as an outlet to call the dev out of touch or they don't know how to do their job. At least they are doing a better job with 5* but it's a thank you and forget about it thing.

entrailbucket

Both options can exist!  And both options are equally valid, as is any option in between. 

So why should the developers only rebalance characters for one kind of player?  Why should someone who disagrees with them be dismissed as wrong, or forcing their views on the game, or calling the devs out of touch?

HoundofShadow

Based on past rebalances, the dev didn't do it for only one type of players.

Rebalances can be generally classified as:

1) small tweaks: Archangel, Valkyrie and TA Hulk

2) full rework: 5* Dr Ock and Mr Fantastic

3) number tweaks or update: 5* Jean Grey

4) A mix of the above: 5* GR

What we don't have is turning bottom tier or average tier characters into meta tier.

Given that USA is a democratic country, I guess majority wins most of the time. And this is such in MPQ. Maybe, one day, the dev will throw in a bone or two for meta players when it comes to rebalancing old characters.

DAZ0273

Once again I am a bit surprised that we get a rebalance and no incentive event to try the new WM out. At least he is boosted so that is one thing. Personally if your name is "War Machine" and you don't hit like a small army then you are doing it wrong. His most offence based power is a scanner! Always felt weird.

Still - I hope people can reign in their negativity about these rebalances because I wouldn't want them to stop because all the Devs see is negative feedback and decide there is no point as we can't ever be pleased.

So keep 'em coming!

Srheer0

I see him being really good against blob and polaris if he can fire his green before dying or being stunned. 

Sad that they removed the anti invis part of his blue   

Can't wait to see the next 4 or 5star they tweak next month  

Perhaps devs could do a poll of 4-10 characters and the top voted 2 will be the next ones they change? Would make forum users happier if they felt like they had some input instead of "oh hey, lockjaw and war machine aren't used much. Here's some buffs".   @IceIX

DAZ0273

They haven't removed the anti-invis blue power that I can see?

NEW:
Heat Signature Detection - 10  AP
War Machine activates his heat signature detection, flushing enemies out of hiding and cutting through their defenses. Removes all enemy Invisibility tiles and up to 2 enemy Protect tiles, then deals 773 damage. (Max 1505 damage)

HoundofShadow

The invisibility is still there. 

And it took me this long to realise why War Machine was chosen. Black History Month.

I did a quick glance of 4* black characters and the likely candidates buff would be Monica Rambeau, Misty Knight, Sam Wilson and War Machine. Since Monica and Misty are relatively new, Flaptain and WM went for a test and WM won. 

Borstock

Flaptain is WAY worse than War Machine. Definitely would have preferred him