HoundofShadow said: That depends on how you define "do well". If both players have different goals but they hit the goals they set for themselves, did both players do well?
dianetics said: I don’t know how to design. As I have said before I don’t care about characters, I care about mechanics.if she comes out to be top tier I will happily take the L.I was wrong about Col5 before, but I used him. I wasn’t wrong about Odin though. I like Knull who entrail doesn’t. This isn’t a conversation about elitism, but about perceived value. I do like Ultron I’m certain circumstances. But Abby isn’t even on that level to me.
entrailbucket said: HoundofShadow said: A lot of gamers who strive to be at the top are usually "elitists". New players who come into forums have been seasoned to believe that when the "pro" thinks that x is bad, thinking otherwise makes you a "noob". I see this in many rpg(-like) games that I've played in the past. Likewise, for MPQ, only sharding Polaris, Juggernaut, R4G, Apocalypse, Okoye etc are the "right" choices. Other scenarios are choices of characters in "special" special stores, like Anniversary stores. When Dr Strange or OML are part of the choices, the players don't know how to play. Likewise, when dev creates characters that don't fit this group of players criteria, the dev are thought to be not knowledgeable about what they are doing, and, only top players know how to design and create the "right" characters. So you think a new player whose only champion 5* is Abigail will be able to do as well as a new player whose only champion 5* is Shang-Chi?
HoundofShadow said: A lot of gamers who strive to be at the top are usually "elitists". New players who come into forums have been seasoned to believe that when the "pro" thinks that x is bad, thinking otherwise makes you a "noob". I see this in many rpg(-like) games that I've played in the past. Likewise, for MPQ, only sharding Polaris, Juggernaut, R4G, Apocalypse, Okoye etc are the "right" choices. Other scenarios are choices of characters in "special" special stores, like Anniversary stores. When Dr Strange or OML are part of the choices, the players don't know how to play. Likewise, when dev creates characters that don't fit this group of players criteria, the dev are thought to be not knowledgeable about what they are doing, and, only top players know how to design and create the "right" characters.
HoundofShadow said: You did not define what it means to "do well". The point is, you have your personal definition of what "do well" means, and other players have their personal definitions as well. One player's definition shouldn't be seen as more superior than other players' definitions. Players play game for their own enjoyments, and how players enjoy it are subjective. There are players who have played MPQ for over 7 years and they have only 1 or 2 5* champed. They are still enjoying themselves and they think they are doing well. On the other hand, there are those who don't enjoy this type of progress.Likewise, players shouldn't be "shamed" or "looked down on" just because they didn't make Okoye/Apocalypse/Shang Chi/Polaris/Juggernaut their first choice, or use them majority of the time.
dianetics said: Clearly this convo needs to slow down some since it appears to be straying away from Abigail.Lets move on from the discussion and meta implications and continue on with her kit and how it can be potentially be used effectively with other characters.i apologize for my hand in derailing this thread.
entrailbucket said: Yes! That's exactly what they should do! The problem now is that Kingpin and Wasp etc are weak against every element and strong against nothing, while SW Colossus etc are strong against everything and weak against nothing. There is plenty of space to make the game deep in that way and I would love for them to do it, but -- here's the thing, *they haven't*. The good characters are just good and the bad characters are just bad. There are no classes or Pokemon-style element matching because the good characters beat everything every time.What "element" is Abigail? What sort of team is she exceptionally strong against? What is her niche that can't be filled by any other character? Why would I choose to bring her into battle over a character like SW who is good against every enemy team?
Sekilicious said: dianetics said: Clearly this convo needs to slow down some since it appears to be straying away from Abigail.Lets move on from the discussion and meta implications and continue on with her kit and how it can be potentially be used effectively with other characters.i apologize for my hand in derailing this thread. I do think this has everything to do with Brand. It developed because of a comment that the developers didn’t know what made characters good or bad. Some people think every character outside the top-PvP meta isn’t worth rostering and, by extension, when they aren’t worth rostering they get flabbergasted they are released at all. It is ok if some of us push back on that meme a little bit. There is enough of that on Line, Discord, and Reddit.
entrailbucket said: Players should be able to compete and win using any character. I should be able to win fights against lvl550 SW/Colossus with lvl600+ Kingpin/Wasp, and win them easily.
entrailbucket said: Sekilicious said: dianetics said: Clearly this convo needs to slow down some since it appears to be straying away from Abigail.Lets move on from the discussion and meta implications and continue on with her kit and how it can be potentially be used effectively with other characters.i apologize for my hand in derailing this thread. I do think this has everything to do with Brand. It developed because of a comment that the developers didn’t know what made characters good or bad. Some people think every character outside the top-PvP meta isn’t worth rostering and, by extension, when they aren’t worth rostering they get flabbergasted they are released at all. It is ok if some of us push back on that meme a little bit. There is enough of that on Line, Discord, and Reddit. You're responding to an argument that no one here is making.I will roster Abigail and I will champion her. I will have fun using her in a combo, probably with Hawkeye or some 4*. I will try to use her against the very best characters in PvP, and I'll try to win the CL10 challenge node with her, and I will probably fail at it. That means that she is bad.A lot of players will roster 1 cover of her to do essentials, and they will continue to win everything despite that decision. They won't miss anything, because there will never be a situation where you need her to win.
Sekilicious said: If Maggia Muscle were released as a playable character her stock rises immediately.
KGB said: entrailbucket said: Players should be able to compete and win using any character. I should be able to win fights against lvl550 SW/Colossus with lvl600+ Kingpin/Wasp, and win them easily. Yes and No.If the game is designed around an Iron Golem/Rust Monster/Mind Flayer (I prefer that over rock/paper/scissors) model and you bring scissors against a rock team you should lose virtually every time (minus big time luck). So any 2 random characters you pick should not necessarily beat any other 2 characters and definitely not easily.But yes, you should definitely be able to form a team with Wasp/Kingpin and beat some other pick 2 teams if the matchup is right. The problem is you just don't get to see those teams because no one is using them and even if a few players are, they make sure to leave out the Colossus/SW team on defense.KGBP.S. And yes, I'm fully aware the gulf between the best and worst characters is too wide (this is true in 3*, 4* as well as 5* land).