Backtracking On Balance

bk1234

As we finally start to settle into new Standard, another change greets us this weekend; the return of legacy coalition PvP. (Or as we know it in Platinum, Omni-thon.)

If you’re in bronze, silver or gold, you likely won’t see too much of a change from this, you are luckily on fairly level ground with your peers; but due to a very imbalanced upper tier system players in Platinum are going to have a rough weekend. I would like to address a few points about this change: 

1. The change to events was not included in release notes. Instead it was an italicized byline in Sneak Peeks the last time these events ran, months ago. Release notes are linked through the inbox. They have a broad reader base. Also all event changes should be included in release notes even if an italicized byline is at some prior point included — because everything in this game is subject to change (like how the actual event changed in the middle of the week this week). Most of the MTGPQ player base doesn’t even know what’s about to hit them this weekend. 

2. The top tier of the game (Platinum) has been unbalanced almost since it was created. It takes relatively little work to progress to platinum. There are players with 500 cards or fewer in this tier. They will be competing this weekend in an open collection event with players who have access to collections over 5000 cards. Players with 3 months in the game are competing against players with 6 years in the game. Basing ability on mastery is not a measure of fair matching when 1. The bar is very low and 2. The game is also designed to reward players to master cards through the player level system. 

3. At some point, a couple years ago, Oktagon quietly stopped running legacy coalition events. This was, in my opinion, one of the best decisions they ever made for the balance of the game. I love legacy events — but I have an excellent legacy collection. I really like that I can play them as individual and really stretch my collection without having to worry about my coalition scores, and without having to play the same cards over and over. As a coalition leader, I appreciate the stress it takes off my members — who have spent the week calming newer players and helping them consider how to get past one card, instead of having the normal fun we do as a team. I don’t understand why this was backtracked without a solution to the Platinum tier problem. 

Since this change was not included in release notes where we could discuss it, I would really love some feedback from Oktagon on the thought behind this decision. When I saw the byline in early fall, I figured it meant these events were going to be individual which is usually what happens when events become legacy — with no release notes and opportunity to discuss this as a community, and nothing more than a vague  italicized sentence 3 months ago; I feel a decision was made to the detriment of the game; especially to retention. (And retention is already tough when there is a standard rotation)

F16LODER

I guess I didn't notice the lack of legacy coalition events. I did notice that when we rotated to the new standard, the first two coalition events were standard with mechanics that were nearly impossible with the available cardset: Party and Night/Day. Players that are willing or able to pay for VIP or a ton of packs have the advantage. If platinum players are tired of seeing Omniscience or NB3 then ban the cards for the event just like in paper and arena. Balance legacy and standard events rotation.  I didn't spend my time and money to only use a fraction of my collection. If there are cards that are OP limit them to PVE. Simple.

Techg

3 years in and no Omni, I am scared for sure in PvP.

bk1234

F16LODER said:

I guess I didn't notice the lack of legacy coalition events. I did notice that when we rotated to the new standard, the first two coalition events were standard with mechanics that were nearly impossible with the available cardset: Party and Night/Day. Players that are willing or able to pay for VIP or a ton of packs have the advantage. If platinum players are tired of seeing Omniscience or NB3 then ban the cards for the event just like in paper and arena. Balance legacy and standard events rotation.  I didn't spend my time and money to only use a fraction of my collection. If there are cards that are OP limit them to PVE. Simple.

For the record, I had a full legacy collection well before there was VIP. This game has a very loyal playerbase and many of us with big collections earned them with 6 years in the game. The idea that all players with big collections have paid for them is a fallacy. 

F16LODER

Sorry that's not really what I meant.  I was VIP for a year and enjoyed the benefits.  Since I stopped Ive been building my collection just fine...You can definitely get there through hard work and grind.  I was only referring to getting enough cards to be competitive early in a Standard rollover. That is part of the game for sure, but this time was particularly challenging.  

BongoTheGrey

I'm not a fan of Legacy PvP coalition events because newer players don't have that big of a collection to play against veteran players but I don't think that scheduling them every once in a while is a backtracking on balance.

They already schedule RAW every once in a while and IMO that really is a backtracking on balance compared to regular Legacy PvP events.

Full legacy PvP events only affects a certain part of the community, the Platinum players that are not too new since they are already in platinum but have a small Legacy collection to compete against veteran players just like you explained. However, Platinum is so clogged right now that they probably have the same chance of running against  a veteran player or a layer just like themselves without the Legacy powerhouse cards like Omni. Players in Bronze, Silver and Gold probably won't have to face that.

On the other hand RAW is a set restricted Legacy event that presents a bigger challenge in terms of deckbuilding for them. Those same not so new not so veteran players have to build decks with cards that have been Legacy since two Standard rotations ago plus Origins. That is really bad because their card pool on those sets is really limited. Full legacy events at least allows them to build strong decks using Standard cards that they have access at least through FBLTHP like the Bridge, Tiamat and all the big dragons.

Like I said, Legacy PvP represents a challenge but if they run those coalition events every once in while and specially if they run them INSTEAD of Ravnica at War events I don't see it as a backtracking on balance. I just hope that it doesn't become a regular thing.

Slobodax

I agree with Bianca : even if RAW is even a bigger backtracking on balance (BongoTheGrey, you're totally right about that), it doesn't change the fact that running Legacy PvP can be deadly to players who started playing in the last year or so. Many powerhouse cards rotated to Legacy over these 6 years, and this creates a huge gap between players (wether they pack VIP or not).

It is also true that the last standard rotation was hard on free players, but I still think maintaining standard PvP coalition event is the best way of giving everyone a good chance to score.
Plus full legacy deck wielded by power players are often boring loop-based decks that offer a very poor gaming experience : yes, they are highly efficient, but also awfully lame. Sticking to standard stimulates creativity.

If there is one Legacy PvP from time to time, I guess it's OK, you just have to hope you won't run into another Omni-loop, or a Rishkar-Rashmi-Orni tedious deck, or a KI-Emrakul NB2 ...

Tezzeret

Honestly.. I think this was a " woopsie-daisey" moment. I doubt pvp legacy will ever come back again. They were likely  worried about running  buggy event switched it to avoid people complaining.... didn't realize they switched to a now legacy coded event.... said efff it! And it will be the last time we see it. 

So..

Enjoy the event if you can!  if you can't, try to survive the event, and know it probably won't ever happen again!

bk1234

Tezzeret said:

Honestly.. I think this was a " woopsie-daisey" moment. I doubt pvp legacy will ever come back again. They were likely  worried about running  buggy event switched it to avoid people complaining.... didn't realize they switched to a now legacy coded event.... said efff it! And it will be the last time we see it. 

So..

Enjoy the event if you can!  if you can't, try to survive the event, and know it probably won't ever happen again!

It was not. It was announced it the September Sneak Peek when HxB was last run. This is intentional. Ttn was supposed to be in legacy as well, which is even more detrimental since it has an enchantment objective and Omni is an enchantment. 

BongoTheGrey

If the devs are really going to keep scheduling full Legacy events they need to fix the loop prevention system that doesn't prevent any loop from stoping when Greg is the one performing it. That is just not ok. You see Greg looping like crazy and when the loop prevention bar appears and comes to an end nothing happens. It never works. There are tons of ways of performing Infinite loops in Legacy, some kill you and some doesn't kill you and there is nothing more boring in MTGPQ than being stuck on a loop that is going nowhere but you cannot escape from it and eventually end up just conceding the match even though you could have easily won if, and that is a big if, the loop stoped at some point

Tezzeret

bk1234 said:

Tezzeret said:

Honestly.. I think this was a " woopsie-daisey" moment. I doubt pvp legacy will ever come back again. They were likely  worried about running  buggy event switched it to avoid people complaining.... didn't realize they switched to a now legacy coded event.... said efff it! And it will be the last time we see it. 

So..

Enjoy the event if you can!  if you can't, try to survive the event, and know it probably won't ever happen again!

It was not. It was announced it the September Sneak Peek when HxB was last run. This is intentional. Ttn was supposed to be in legacy as well, which is even more detrimental since it has an enchantment objective and Omni is an enchantment. 

I forget I'm the John Snow of this forum sometimes. In the fact that I know nothing.. lol

Well Eff. I guess if we are gonna be rowdy legacy boys (and gals) I gotta agree with the above statements. Fix loop prevention or have a diamond tier so new plats don't get steam rolled.

Janosik

These are individual events. If you don’t like something about them or don’t think they are worth your time; you don’t have to play them.

Techg

Janosik said:

These are individual events. If you don’t like something about them or don’t think they are worth your time; you don’t have to play them.

Coalition events are not individual event.

Machine

Janosik said:

These are individual events. If you don’t like something about them or don’t think they are worth your time; you don’t have to play them.

Your quote of bk1234 failed miserably... coalition events are NOT individual events.

Janosik

Machine said:

Janosik said:

These are individual events. If you don’t like something about them or don’t think they are worth your time; you don’t have to play them.

Your quote of bk1234 failed miserably... coalition events are NOT individual events.

Sorry. I thought individual events meant single events, not events for individuals.

But you still don't have to play them.