Welcome to Shield Day 3 Alligator Loki Buzz Off not fun

Srheer0

I like the theme of the fight. It certainly annoyed me.

Had to use TUPS to kill the troublemakers (5 YJ).

turbomoose

I did this one this morning, think it took over 20 minutes 😴

someone at D3 has a sick sense of humour , a few of these fights have involved characters who hide forever but Yellowjacket is such a pain

i had this in a PvP fight recently and I think I gave up because I couldn’t hurt him 

fortunately I had a Kamala team damage as a back up which I waited to use once he had dropped below 4000 health 

Hellblazer666

The 5th Node was annoying too one mindless one against Alligator Loki and either 5 star or 3 star Loki. It took me a while cause the eye beams kept killing me but i eventually won. Alligator Loki Sucks there I said it.

TheEyeDoctorsWife

Hellblazer666 said:

The 5th Node was annoying too one mindless one against Alligator Loki and either 5 star or 3 star Loki. It took me a while cause the eye beams kept killing me but i eventually won. Alligator Loki Sucks there I said it.

I thought this was actually the easiest with a Destroyer and Daggers from a loaned Loki 

entrailbucket

They need to introduce a new goon enemy for these events, something like a "test dummy," that has 1000 health, no powers, and doesn't move the board.  That way everyone can win easily every time, no matter who the featured character is.

Actually, they should just replace all the enemies in every PvE with the test dummy, to make sure everyone can win easily there too.

While they're at it, maybe they could also change PvP so that instead of other players' teams, it's just endless waves of 3x test dummy teams.

HoundofShadow

All these feedbacks/complaints reminds me of something or certain request by many players: shake things up in pves by making them non-time based or make them more puzzly. If these Loki introduction nodes and Puzzle Gauntlet nodes are any indication of what future pves look like, I think those players will regret and beg for the current "boring" pve format to be back.

Can you imagine spending 20-30 minutes to clear just one of the node in pve instead of the entire pve 4x clear? After spending 20 minutes on one node, you have another 9 puzzle nodes to clear which will take another ~10 minutes. Total time spent over three days is ~110 minutes. For SCL 10, you can probably mutiply time spent by 1.5-2.

fractalvisions

HoundofShadow said:

All these feedbacks/complaints reminds me of something or certain request by many players: shake things up in pves by making them non-time based or make them more puzzly. If these Loki introduction nodes and Puzzle Gauntlet nodes are any indication of what future pves look like, I think those players will regret and beg for the current "boring" pve format to be back.

Can you imagine spending 20-30 minutes to clear just one of the node in pve instead of the entire pve 4x clear? After spending 20 minutes on one node, you have another 9 puzzle nodes to clear which will take another ~10 minutes. Total time spent over three days is ~110 minutes. For SCL 10, you can probably mutiply time spent by 1.5-2.

Are the players complaining here actually the same ones that asked for PvE to be shaken up? Personally I'm quite happy with these Loki introduction nodes and also generally with puzzle gauntlet.

HoundofShadow

I infer that to be the case. However, I'm not implying all players will feel that way.

Based on the feedbacks that I've seen from old and new shield trainings, Introducing nodes and puzzle ops, any form of character restrictions  is usually greatly frowned upon.

The first version of FfW was fun and rather different from your typical pves However, it was put into cold storage for years due to massive amount of complains. When FfW was reincarnated, it became your typical pve.

The second last Puzzle Op we had was difficult and challenging. However, I guess the dev received a lot of negative feedbacks about that run. In the following run or the last Puzzle Op ran, the puzzle (collecting aps) was so easy that nobody bothered to start a thread about it to ask for help here.

Apart from that, players expect good rewards when solving difficult puzzles. Giving them 1000 iso or Elite token turn them off. When you replace your regular pve with regular puzzly pve the likes of introducing event or puzzle ops, players will definitely be unhappy about the difficulty and rewards given.

So, based on the above, I infer that shaking up pves with puzzly non-timed pves will be interesting for the first few runs. And players will hate it after that. Of course, there will be players who like such events. 

Bad

Like I said before, we were in here all in the same boat. Same character, same foes. No MMR, no vets, no maxed character whales in here.
In the same scenario, a bit difficult (although I only repeated the mindless node because of bad board/cds) there was 2 reactions:
-Clenching teeth and go for it, analizing foes and character skills and enjoying the challenge(possibly experience and playing this game a lot determines the outcome)
- Not accepting the challenge adding some excuses(too hard, not funny, bad rewards, 20 minutes battle???, etc...)
My guess is a lot of players had found ok this introducing to... however without any doubt there will be more numbers of them complaining.
It's up to devs then to think what group will make happy. 
My suggestion is that a game must be adressed to all types of players, also there is a group that will complain nevertheless.

fractalvisions

One would hope that if they really were to replace the regular PvEs with something new, they would at least give similar rewards for it. They could keep essentially the same progression rewards but set it up so that only one completion of each node is necessary to reach full progression. They could even still allow more clears for those who wish to grind for placement. Although I suspect they may just keep things as they are so they have a mixture. There seem to be plenty of players who are happy with the repetitive grind of PvE and then there are also these more puzzley events for those annoyed by the regular PvE. Of course it would be nice if they did improve the rewards for the latter.

What was FfW originally like?

DAZ0273

fractalvisions said:

One would hope that if they really were to replace the regular PvEs with something new, they would at least give similar rewards for it. They could keep essentially the same progression rewards but set it up so that only one completion of each node is necessary to reach full progression. They could even still allow more clears for those who wish to grind for placement. Although I suspect they may just keep things as they are so they have a mixture. There seem to be plenty of players who are happy with the repetitive grind of PvE and then there are also these more puzzley events for those annoyed by the regular PvE. Of course it would be nice if they did improve the rewards for the latter.

What was FfW originally like?

It originally had some "environmental/Hazard tiles" that did various things on the different days like expode causing damage and stealing/switching shields between AI and player. People complained that the first day especially was rigged against the player. There was also something about too many loaner nodes but I can't remember exactly. People even complained that it had Dark Avengers and Ultron Sentries as bad guys.

Sadly they killed it and it became just a regular PvE.

DeNappa

DAZ0273 said:

fractalvisions said:

One would hope that if they really were to replace the regular PvEs with something new, they would at least give similar rewards for it. They could keep essentially the same progression rewards but set it up so that only one completion of each node is necessary to reach full progression. They could even still allow more clears for those who wish to grind for placement. Although I suspect they may just keep things as they are so they have a mixture. There seem to be plenty of players who are happy with the repetitive grind of PvE and then there are also these more puzzley events for those annoyed by the regular PvE. Of course it would be nice if they did improve the rewards for the latter.

What was FfW originally like?

It originally had some "environmental/Hazard tiles" that did various things on the different days like expode causing damage and stealing/switching shields between AI and player. People complained that the first day especially was rigged against the player. There was also something about too many loaner nodes but I can't remember exactly. People even complained that it had Dark Avengers and Ultron Sentries as bad guys.

Sadly they killed it and it became just a regular PvE.

The complaint about the hazard tiles was not that they were 'rigged', but that despite claims that they were 'neutral', they were implemented in such a way that they were always more beneficial to the enemy team (or more detrimental to the player's team). The key factor here was that they always ticked down on the enemy turn, causing the effects always to hit the player, and any resulting cascades always damaged the player and generated AP for the enemy.

Instead of fixing this, they just scrapped the event for a long time. And as far as I know, the hazard tiles 'neutrality' issue has never been fixed (they are still featured in some events).

LavaManLee

DeNappa said:

The complaint about the hazard tiles was not that they were 'rigged', but that despite claims that they were 'neutral', they were implemented in such a way that they were always more beneficial to the enemy team (or more detrimental to the player's team). The key factor here was that they always ticked down on the enemy turn, causing the effects always to hit the player, and any resulting cascades always damaged the player and generated AP for the enemy.

Instead of fixing this, they just scrapped the event for a long time. And as far as I know, the hazard tiles 'neutrality' issue has never been fixed (they are still featured in some events).

Exactly.  Nobody claimed thy were rigged.  They just weren't neutral.  They always went off before the player's turn so they never affected the AI.

DAZ0273

OK well by all means change the wording but similar outcome in terms of why people complained - they were not getting any advantage whereas the AI was.

HoundofShadow

Actually, we are having a lot of advantages over the AI. To me, those "advantages" in FfW weren't a big deal.

I still remember that matching away those "neutral" tiles still generate aps for 3* Hawkeye.

Flipping friendly protect tiles to become enemy tiles aren't that bad. We had Medusa, 3* Hawkeye etc to deal with them. We also had characters who ignore protect tiles like Peggy or Eddie.
Now, we have Morbius, Mantis and more 5* who ignores protect tiles.

The AoE cds were a little irritating but we have Electro and 5Witch now to deal with them.
 
CDs randomly stunning characters of either team was exciting and it's probably the most exciting part of the event.

If they brought back the original FfW now, it will be like easy mode.

The difficult part is balancing time spent, rewards and difficulty. We know the dev has some calculations for  time spent needed to achieve x amount of rewards. 

LavaManLee

HoundofShadow said:

 We know the dev has some calculations for  time spent needed to achieve x amount of rewards. 

Out of curiosity, how do we "know" this?  Seems to me the 20 minutes or so for one node of this latest introduction for no more than 25 total shards for the whole event isn't a very good time spent to achieve x.

HoundofShadow

When the game first started, they had this 5 or 6 parts interview where they went into the mechanics of how they generate incomes etc. While the info is like 6-7 years ago, I doubt they will make drastic changes on that. 

Those who took 20 minutes probably had only YJ left standing. The Introducing Event's main purpose is to let players learn about the character's background via lens of MPQ. The rewards are probably bonus because any tier of player can complete them, even 1* player. Loaners are provided for all nodes. That's probably why rewards are not as good as expected.

entrailbucket

For some people, playing the game is just a means to earn rewards.  Ideally for them, the "game" part of the game would be as easy/mindless/minimal as possible -- the goal is to earn the most rewards with the least effort.


I will never, ever understand this attitude, because the only rewards on offer are things that can be used to play the game.  If they were giving away tropical vacations or new kitchen appliances, then yes, it makes sense to want to do less "work" to get better rewards.  But they're giving away covers and iso and shards, items which only have value within the game. 

If you consider the "game" part of the game to be work, why do you even want the rewards?

acescracked

entrailbucket said:

For some people, playing the game is just a means to earn rewards.  Ideally for them, the "game" part of the game would be as easy/mindless/minimal as possible -- the goal is to earn the most rewards with the least effort.


I will never, ever understand this attitude, because the only rewards on offer are things that can be used to play the game.  If they were giving away tropical vacations or new kitchen appliances, then yes, it makes sense to want to do less "work" to get better rewards.  But they're giving away covers and iso and shards, items which only have value within the game. 

If you consider the "game" part of the game to be work, why do you even want the rewards?

PVE rewards were always to build a roster to crush people in PvP. Surprised you posted that cause you guys are infamous in S2 for trying to deny other players placement & progression. PVE was the grind farm & PvP was the give em reds or get some blues 😀

The game & player style has evolved though since the 'earlier' days of farm pve to dominate in PvP. Battlechats morphed to grill rooms & many 'newer' players find PvP difficult.

entrailbucket

acescracked said:

entrailbucket said:

For some people, playing the game is just a means to earn rewards.  Ideally for them, the "game" part of the game would be as easy/mindless/minimal as possible -- the goal is to earn the most rewards with the least effort.


I will never, ever understand this attitude, because the only rewards on offer are things that can be used to play the game.  If they were giving away tropical vacations or new kitchen appliances, then yes, it makes sense to want to do less "work" to get better rewards.  But they're giving away covers and iso and shards, items which only have value within the game. 

If you consider the "game" part of the game to be work, why do you even want the rewards?

PVE rewards were always to build a roster to crush people in PvP. Surprised you posted that cause you guys are infamous in S2 for trying to deny other players placement & progression. PVE was the grind farm & PvP was the give em reds or get some blues 😀

The game & player style has evolved though since the 'earlier' days of farm pve to dominate in PvP. Battlechats morphed to grill rooms & many 'newer' players find PvP difficult.

No way, the way we used to play (and still do, to some extent...nobody likes s2 for a reason) was FUN.  We didn't do it just to be jerks, although we were/are jerks, we did it because it's a total blast to play that way.   It was never "work."

To this day I'd rather deny progression/placement to someone else than earn it myself.  Earning it for yourself is easy, anyone can do it.  Denying someone else is really hard, but that's what makes it fun.