Let’s talk Supports and what is a meaningful revamp.

Phumade

First off
1.  A game mechanic that only works in 1/2 of the game modes is sorta pointless.  Even more so with pve events for this simple reason.  As a time focused mode only 4-5 supports will ever be used.  The situation  is worse in the sense that players have limited opportunities to even see or understand the effects of the other 50+ supports

2.  Let’s also acknowledge that current supports are wildly overpowered for pvp play and cannot exist in its current form.

objective:  what needs to happen to allow pvp play?
1.  A complete nerf and reseed of powers?  Is that even possible?  What does a reasonable pvp support do?
2.  Maybe introduce a new pvp only power for suppport?  So keep existing pve powers,  but have a nerfed pvp only power?

questions?
1.  Do people want to manage a support aspect in pvp?  Assuming reasonable effects do people want the customization?
2.  If they take away current supports for a new system,  what would be an acceptable buyback?  Are we looking at a no more guns in the valley store?
3.  What do we do about the gauntlets and stones?

jp1

I say, either implement them as is or leave them out. Nerfing supports is a can of worms we don’t need opened. They were too hard to acquire in the first place.

Another solution would be to only let supports be active on offense.

wymtime

A couple of things I would do with supports.  

1 with supports that only add 3 abilities drop the 3rd ability to level 4 support and allow level 5 to be just a boost of power.

2 when getting duplicate support rather than getting RISO it goes towards another star level on that support this way we can actually grow to a level 5 support.

3 for PVP allow supports to go towards the player only and not the defensive team.  Allow supports on a defensive team will just make supports terrible and it should just go towards the player.  

Sekilicious

If they allow in PvP, I would like a consistent way to earn tokens. Perhaps adding a reward to Progression in both PvP and PvE. Actually, I would like this regardless, in addition to duplicate supports giving another star level instead of a pittance of RISO. I won't be holding my breath any time soon. 

Phumade

For now I consider Supports to be in “maintenance” mode.  Ie.  They are effectively walled off while they reconsider how supports evolve.  

I personally don’t worry about the scarcity because the devs can easily “turn on” availability.  I only hope that once they decide how supports affect pvp,  they also show a reasonable roadmap for acquisition through play vs buy club resource.

but those issues are really contingent on developing a non game breaking version of supports. I would be really curious on a preview.

Phumade

At a min using supports in a large sandbox format like season sim would all for meaningful use of the support system.  Yeas I know this negatively impacts Stone Chasers.  But that’s what they need to work towards.

a support system that allows deep roster interaction without introducing game breaking balance issues in pvp based modes like LR, Season sim, Events while not eliminating the current investments on the pve side.

Bad

Supports on pvp? No, please. Players with stones would become unbeatable.
Supports work for a good half of the game, the part that is not a fight with other players(actually in the end that sentence is not true, but well it has his justification because is the pve).
So my pov is that a pvp with support will benefit the most vet players discouraging more anyone not having all supports at level 5.
It could be an special event enabling them from time to time, sure.
But if the opponent has enabled his equipped owned ones, I would bet that pvp would not be too much populated. And right now in the final pvp slice almost no one goes for 1200 points.

KGB

Leave the existing supports as is for PvE.

Create and gradually release some new supports that can only be used in PvP. These will obviously be toned down from the PvE. For example maybe PvP supports only have 2 powers total, one that is used / active when your on offense and one on defense.

KGB

ThaRoadWarrior

The single best thing that could come along for Supports would be a shard system and favoriting. I wouldn't be opposed to that shard system being more of an XP system, where they got progress towards a new star tier through use in actual matches. I will also say that the short-circuit way to making people care about them would be to open up PVP to them. But doing so adds a huge amount of mental complexity for the player to identify what a give support on a given enemy is doing, so I feel like the safe play is to enable them on offense only as many have already said.

skittledaddy

As a trial run in PVP they could create an off-season event or two where supports are allowed. Similar to some of the other "gimmick" events already out there (i.e. Balance of Power).

Theghouse

I think the first thing that needs to happen is equip restrictions need to be thrown out.  The thematic reason for them is lost in a game where you can team up Mr fantastic with doctor doom to fight against the rest of the fantastic 4.  You also have character specific supports wasted on characters like black panther (whose 3* is moderately useful, and 4* and 5* are garbage tier) and spiderman (all versions except 1* are garbage tier).  Synergy perks are excellent and help maintain thematic connections between characters and their accomplices/equipment/abilities. Equip restrictions are terrible and actively hurt the entire support feature.

Next they definitely need to develop pvp integration, but absolutely not in it's current firm.  Too much complication with new PvP powers or PVP only supports and it will get too confusing for players equipping supports in-between pvp and pve required characters, different teams, etc.  Maybe just a generic bonus of some kind for supported characters in PvP based on the star level of the support, something like Level 1 small hp boost, level 2 small match damage boost, level 3 small power damage boost,  level 4 small incoming damage reduction, level 5 start with 1 AP in strongest color, something like that.  Or it could be a level boost, like 3-5 boost levels per star level.  Just like AP and match damage boosts, it should be an offense only type of feature.  Maybe keep synergy perks to maintain thematics and encourage matching up to a specific character.

Finally as others suggested supports absolutely need a shard type system.  Working on progress of a favorite would be nice, but at a minimum duplicate supports should build towards unlocking the higher level.  One time little chunk of riso is such a defeating feeling especially out of higher tier support tokens which are rare to come by for the majority of players.

ThaRoadWarrior

I would also like to just request that Characters not start coming out pre-hamstrung so that you can complete them with a dedicated support like they were starting to do in that Fi5k to Frost era if new supports do start coming back out.

Bad

Now with puzzle ops it is easier to adquire good level supports, or so I thought: initially I got a pizzadog level 5(I had a 4) and a royal tallon level 4(I had a 2). But lately Im only getting level 3s, perhaps reality is knocking again.

Theghouse said:

I think the first thing that needs to happen is equip restrictions need to be thrown out.  The thematic reason for them is lost in a game where you can team up Mr fantastic with doctor doom to fight against the rest of the fantastic 4.  You also have character specific supports wasted on characters like black panther (whose 3* is moderately useful, and 4* and 5* are garbage tier) and spiderman (all versions except 1* are garbage tier).  Synergy perks are excellent and help maintain thematic connections between characters and their accomplices/equipment/abilities. Equip restrictions are terrible and actively hurt the entire support feature.

I can agree with that. Right now there is a support exclusive for spiderman, another for cap marvel, for ironman, and 2 nothing less for panther.
All 5 of them supports wasted.

Srheer0

I think they need to be scrapped.  

Getting a 4 or 5star is a nightmare.

A system that would make more sense is if they broke them down into perks of each tier (1-5) and you could mix and match them onto any character whos 3star or higher.

As for acquiring them? Add tokens as placement / progression into current events? When I say add, I don't mean replace some of the current rewards.  Just place them inbetween certain rewards.

And seeing as they would be more likely to make the strong characters even stronger, than weak characters on par with strong ones, keep them only active in pve.

DAZ0273

Why not just have a Supports specific PvP run along side normal PvP? A no holds barred all out war where you win Supports related stuff, they could run it to accompany new Support releases like a new character PvP so it wouldn't be all day every day, just every now and then - a little self contained Contest of Champions. You know what you get going in, it doesn't affect your season score and it expands upon the point of getting and using new Supports in the other half of the game currently not, ahem,  supported.

HoundofShadow

How Supports are re-designed will greatly affect players from 1* to 4* land. Currently, new players get 5 Supports the moment they roster a 3*. 3* HT  is given in Prologue. If it is too easy to rank up R5 Support, difficulty for new players will be greatly reduced.

I find that Supports with 5 effects are not that broken for new players. Supports with only 3 effects are kind of broken, especially those related to base damage boost, ap gain, power increment etc.

I think they can allow Supports in PvPs. If they disable Support for AI, the effects are players will be beaten even faster. Currently, players with the right Supports can frequently fire Apocalypse's yellow and black powers, and BRB's blue power on Turn 0. In a Pick-3. BRB can fire his Green Power on Turn 0 too.

I think we can put a cap on the Ranking of Supports allowed in PvPs. Cap it at R2 or R3 for a trial run. 

If Supports are disabled for AI in PvPs, it will affect you too. You will probably see losses faster and more frequently.

I think Supports as a whole are broken. I do think they need to be nerfed some way.

Phumade

Would adding a pvp power be a reasonable add on to existing support system?  So the current powers remain for pve and they add on a pvp event only power to the support.

I imagine you could do something similar with the stones.  Have a separate pvp only effect.

DAZ0273

What powers would the player base want beyond Turn 0 AP generation and or Special tiles in Pvp? Maybe a Support that gives you a guaranteed Match 5 every other turn (you know, so it isn't overpowered)?

Bad

Supports are exclusive for players and it is an advantage bigger than having the right meta characters at high level.
However simple supports equipped on a special event could be fun. Like 3 supports given for playing only that event, with same rules as supports have now: 3 changes per day.
Even one support could be r5.
And because all players having access to these 3 supports, interesting strategies could be designed.
A new pvp with interesting new rules, would be my suggestion.

DAZ0273

Bad said:

Supports are exclusive for players and it is an advantage bigger than having the right meta characters at high level.
However simple supports equipped on a special event could be fun. Like 3 supports given for playing only that event, with same rules as supports have now: 3 changes per day.
Even one support could be r5.
And because all players having access to these 3 supports, interesting strategies could be designed.
A new pvp with interesting new rules, would be my suggestion.

Yes and you have it have both Progession and Placement so that even players who can't compete can still take part and get prizes.

It always seemed odd to me that the reward for finishing first in Season is something you cannot use in Season.

Congratulations! Here is a coupon which you cannot redeem here!

Akoni

Theghouse said:

Next they definitely need to develop pvp integration, but absolutely not in it's current firm.  Too much complication with new PvP powers or PVP only supports and it will get too confusing for players equipping supports in-between pvp and pve required characters, different teams, etc.  Maybe just a generic bonus of some kind for supported characters in PvP based on the star level of the support, something like Level 1 small hp boost, level 2 small match damage boost, level 3 small power damage boost,  level 4 small incoming damage reduction, level 5 start with 1 AP in strongest color, something like that.  Or it could be a level boost, like 3-5 boost levels per star level.  Just like AP and match damage boosts, it should be an offense only type of feature.  Maybe keep synergy perks to maintain thematics and encourage matching up to a specific character.

To your, and others', point, adding supports to PvP or adding PvP-only supports could become very complicated (and frustrating) very fast. My suggestion would be to keep things very simple by keeping the same supports, but add a single power for PvP. During PvE, this PvP-specific power would be disabled. During PvP, all of the other powers are disabled. This way, players can use the same support, without it becoming complicated. This also solves the "too powerful/unfair for PvP" argument.

If stones, for example, currently provide an unfair advantage in PvP, keeping the current powers walled off while adding a PvP-specific power would fix this. They would still have a very useful power giving the player an advantage, but it'll just be one advantage as opposed to 4 powers giving the player multiple advantages. In many cases, devs wouldn't even need to add any powers. They could just designate a power that currently exists for that support which would be the only usable power in PvP while the other powers are deactivated.