Has D3 painted themselves in a corner with 5Clops/Colossus ?

tonypq
tonypq Posts: 557 Critical Contributor
in MPQ General Discussion
You think D3 has painted themselves in a corner with 5Clops/Colossus Phoenix 5 ?

Most seem to think 5Clops is pretty meh. Colossus while a bit more interesting isn't the homerun 5* we've been hoping for after months and months of awkward, bland, and under tuned 5*s we've gotten. Releasing two Phoenix 5 characters in a row now both being 5*s, seems like to save any face and cred this next 5* has to be a tape measure homerun.

With the amount of time it takes for new 5s to be released then clog up latest legends, especially if there are multiple 5s that are lousy and you don't want to pull for. To possibly have the next 5* also be a Phoenix 5 character, knowing D3s recent 5* track record could be from terrible to ok'ish at best. I feel like if they don't kill it with the next P5 character this would be a massive waist of development cycle and player time, as well as giving everyone an eon to have another chance the LL store has at least two very worthwhile 5s to pull for. If they botch the next P5 5*, we're going to end up with a very disappointing entry into 5* land for Cyclops, then Colossus who I feel they didn't do him any justice in his debut to 5 land either. Then there is the chance D3 pulls of the ultimate what the heck move and makes the next P5 character a 4* lol, who knows. 

I feel if D3 planned to release multiple characters of P5 and consecutively, they should of made Cy/Colossus a heck of a lot better. To have them all in LLs at the same time especially if the next 5 is also a P5 character and isn't very good either, that's a tough pill to swallow for everyone. At that point D3's character development at the 5* level going back months and then to this Phoenix 5 possible train wreck, what on earth are they doing. It's also really bizarre when they've made some excellent 4*s within this same stretch of months of wasted 5* opportunities. It's mind boggling how they could be on such long run of 5s that most people agree aren't very good and want to pull for, I can't say I've seen anything like it before. I was curious what some of you think about the months of lousy 5s and now this Phoenix 5 push on us we're getting now. 

None of the newer 5* characters we've gotten during this bland stretch seem to have filled any of the niches players have been asking for in any significant ways. I don't consider any of them overly strong, legit, or interesting personally. Certainly none of them have made a meta splash either or even added another fun or new facet to it. I know us players shouldn't be the main driving force dictating new character design, but I mean come on D3 has to do a much better job than they have over last 3-4 months with new 5*s. It's been embarrassing for some time and there doesn't seem to be many signs things are about to get much better anytime soon.


Comments

  • freakygeek
    freakygeek Posts: 96 Match Maker
    But I have to ask.  Why come out with 2 of the Phoenix 5 (probably another on the way) and offer no synergy perks for the characters?  We now have 3 Phoenix characters in the game, there should be a passive or boost only available when playing them together.
  • Sekilicious
    Sekilicious Posts: 1,766 Chairperson of the Boards
    The synergy between characters is often not much more than "if character x is present then y". The best synergy occurs between completely unrelated characters. That is why Grocket and Gamora lose steam after a few strike tiles are matched, but Grocket and Polaris are meta. Medusa and Black Bolt. Nah. Medusa and Carnage. Hell yeah. It is probably not reasonable to expect the Phoenix 5 to be different. 
  • MadScientist
    MadScientist Posts: 317 Mover and Shaker
    Maybe they do not want to reveal any upcoming characters? Once "Jane Doe (Phoenix Twelve)" is released, some powers could be changed retroactively.
  • AchillesPinky
    AchillesPinky Posts: 4 Just Dropped In
    I’ve got around 400 pulls stockpiled.  Every now and then I open one for the hell of it.  When I do, I feel like a kid at a toy store with money burning a hole in their pocket and when they reach for a toy, their mom slaps their hand away and tells them it’s a waste of money.
  • McPosterson
    McPosterson Posts: 43 Just Dropped In
    The new fives are primo.  You just can't see it yet.   will spend much money for them.  Betcha
  • TheRiddler
    TheRiddler Posts: 291 Mover and Shaker
    AchillesPinky said:
    I’ve got around 400 pulls stockpiled.  Every now and then I open one for the hell of it.  When I do, I feel like a kid at a toy store with money burning a hole in their pocket and when they reach for a toy, their mom slaps their hand away and tells them it’s a waste of money.

    I'm in the same boat and it is the first time I've ever been able to build up a hoard of this amount. And I'm planning on pulling from this store this week to finish off Apocalypse and I feel excited to actually be able to open a handful of tokens for the first time in a long time.
  • SnowcaTT
    SnowcaTT Posts: 3,486 Chairperson of the Boards
    Theghouse said:


    All 5* will feel lackluster and the meta won't change until either an even bigger badder rock comes along, or we get options for paper which makes all the scissors better too.  If we get a Hulkoye counter that is weak to match damage, it might even open the door for teams built around Warlock, Sighclops, or Colossus.  
    The hoards must be getting pretty big at this point too - if/when they ever release something awesome expect to suddenly see a whole bunch of 550 of it.
    I'm of the opinion that Colossus could be really good at high levels with the right partner - PX primarily for now. He's a "must take out first" type, so you'll see him as a 3rd in Sim - simply because he slows down the opposition removing the 'real' threat: hulkoye or BRBitty or whatever the other two are.

    The solution to many of the problems would be a good 5* stunner. The ability to stun hulk/BRB/Carnage/PX/Colossus - whatever - is really missing. Strange was an expensive stun and low health, a long time ago now. Ice is probably the best 5* stun option right now - good but not great and long ago.

    The other solution would be a passive that kills other passives.
  • Phumade
    Phumade Posts: 2,496 Chairperson of the Boards
    I will give them more credit as to their ability to develop a new counter meta.  I personally was surprised at how efficiently they developed the passive shield meta, and then the anti special tile meta. 

    I don’t think they really understood the big picture macro economics.  Specifically they probably didn’t anticipate the sheer volume of resources of high end dupe farming.  This is what I mean.
     
    Elder Tier whales have a full set of 2*,3*,4* dupe farms.  They also have a higher turn ratio in that they complete the cycles faster and faster due to sheer cover volumes.  2nd factor is that each new 4* opens up a new farm slot that will yield cp hp.  I have not fully tracked out the yield  numbers but I’m guessing the predicted cp/hp value per season for a SR 200 player is far higher than what’s need to cover a new 4*/5* per season.

    the net result is that big farm players generate more 5* covers and level chars at faster rates than younger players.  It also means than even if you took cp out of placement, the farm yields enough LT and Cp to keep up with champing releases.


  • Theghouse
    Theghouse Posts: 334 Mover and Shaker
    Phumade said:
    I will give them more credit as to their ability to develop a new counter meta.  I personally was surprised at how efficiently they developed the passive shield meta, and then the anti special tile meta. 

    I don’t think they really understood the big picture macro economics.  Specifically they probably didn’t anticipate the sheer volume of resources of high end dupe farming.  This is what I mean.
     
    Elder Tier whales have a full set of 2*,3*,4* dupe farms.  They also have a higher turn ratio in that they complete the cycles faster and faster due to sheer cover volumes.  2nd factor is that each new 4* opens up a new farm slot that will yield cp hp.  I have not fully tracked out the yield  numbers but I’m guessing the predicted cp/hp value per season for a SR 200 player is far higher than what’s need to cover a new 4*/5* per season.

    the net result is that big farm players generate more 5* covers and level chars at faster rates than younger players.  It also means than even if you took cp out of placement, the farm yields enough LT and Cp to keep up with champing releases.


    I completely agree that they are able to develop and even pre-plan synergy within certain strategy sets.  I think a lot of times though they are out of touch by how to develop effective counters in the meta.  Eventually over-dominant defensive teams that don't get effective counters are nerfed out of existence.  

    I don't necessarily agree that the anti special meta has developed well at the 5* level. Gritty's best strike counters are 4* but that's acceptable because gritty is a 4*/5* combo.  BRBitty on the other hand has no real protect counters at the 5* level except Kitty who is a over a year older than BRB and very inaccessible to those who entered 5* play in this meta.  But there are some serviceable 5* options and you can make some 4* work.  I think Mags Sighclops and Colossus' sub-par removal powers were attempts to provide more counters to this meta.

    I think warlock and YJ's healing and Mags and heimdall's airborne might have been attempts to counter Hulk's passive AOE,  Now we've moved on to the match damage powers without iHulk being well handled, which makes me think if there's no other possible counters coming up and forum complaints continue we might see a nerf on iHulk.
  • Daredevil217
    Daredevil217 Posts: 3,966 Chairperson of the Boards
    Theghouse said:
    Phumade said:
    I will give them more credit as to their ability to develop a new counter meta.  I personally was surprised at how efficiently they developed the passive shield meta, and then the anti special tile meta. 

    I don’t think they really understood the big picture macro economics.  Specifically they probably didn’t anticipate the sheer volume of resources of high end dupe farming.  This is what I mean.
     
    Elder Tier whales have a full set of 2*,3*,4* dupe farms.  They also have a higher turn ratio in that they complete the cycles faster and faster due to sheer cover volumes.  2nd factor is that each new 4* opens up a new farm slot that will yield cp hp.  I have not fully tracked out the yield  numbers but I’m guessing the predicted cp/hp value per season for a SR 200 player is far higher than what’s need to cover a new 4*/5* per season.

    the net result is that big farm players generate more 5* covers and level chars at faster rates than younger players.  It also means than even if you took cp out of placement, the farm yields enough LT and Cp to keep up with champing releases.


    I completely agree that they are able to develop and even pre-plan synergy within certain strategy sets.  I think a lot of times though they are out of touch by how to develop effective counters in the meta.  Eventually over-dominant defensive teams that don't get effective counters are nerfed out of existence.  

    I don't necessarily agree that the anti special meta has developed well at the 5* level. Gritty's best strike counters are 4* but that's acceptable because gritty is a 4*/5* combo.  BRBitty on the other hand has no real protect counters at the 5* level except Kitty who is a over a year older than BRB and very inaccessible to those who entered 5* play in this meta.  But there are some serviceable 5* options and you can make some 4* work.  I think Mags Sighclops and Colossus' sub-par removal powers were attempts to provide more counters to this meta.

    I think warlock and YJ's healing and Mags and heimdall's airborne might have been attempts to counter Hulk's passive AOE,  Now we've moved on to the match damage powers without iHulk being well handled, which makes me think if there's no other possible counters coming up and forum complaints continue we might see a nerf on iHulk.
    I’d argue BSSM (a 5*... though just barely) is arguably the best strike tile counter (I say arguably because it’s him or Sabretooth depending on what you’re looking for). But BSSM makes so they pretty much don’t exist. 

    As for protects... Thor, Havok and Apoc punch through them as if they don’t exist (problem is they all do it on red). I’d say these are effective counter characters for protect tiles. 
  • HoundofShadow
    HoundofShadow Posts: 8,004 Chairperson of the Boards
    edited March 2021
    There are a few ways to deal with those enemy attack/strike/protect tiles:

    1) convert/replace them with something else (Hela, Mehneto)
    2) remove them(Colossus, BW)
    3) steal them (DD, Rescue)
    4) destroy them (OMD, Yelena)
    5) "ignore" them like BSSM with strike tiles and 4* Eddie Brock with Protect tiles or Powers that specifically ignore protect tiles, usually red power
    6) reduce the strength of those tiles (Kraven, Scorpion)
    7) Prevent them from appearing (Thanos) or flooding the board with your special tiles

    The first 5 methods are pretty well represented in 5* land but the last two are pretty rare. Number 6 won't be pretty useful in 5* land compared to the likes of what BSSM/Eddie Brock is doing. No. 7 could be useful, but could be pretty buggy in the future, as seen in the past interaction of Valkyrie's CD and 5* Thanos.

    At the end of the day, the players' criteria will also determine whether such counters "exist" in their world even though they exist in reality. I would like to see more of method 2 and various version of method 7. Method 7 could be really interesting, especially if it's a passive. It won't be the passive anti-passive ability that some are asking for but can you imagine R4G and BRB without their strike and protect tiles at the start of the game?
  • TheRiddler
    TheRiddler Posts: 291 Mover and Shaker
    HoundofShadow said:
    There are a few ways to deal with those enemy attack/strike/protect tiles:

    1) convert/replace them with something else (Hela, Mehneto)
    2) remove them(Colossus, BW)
    3) steal them (DD, Rescue)
    4) destroy them (OMD, Yelena)
    5) "ignore" them like BSSM with strike tiles and 4* Eddie Brock with Protect tiles or Powers that specifically ignore protect tiles, usually red power
    6) reduce the strength of those tiles (Kraven, Scorpion)
    7) Prevent them from appearing (Thanos) or flooding the board with your special tiles

    The first 5 methods are pretty well represented in 5* land but the last two are pretty rare. Number 6 won't be pretty useful in 5* land compared to the likes of what BSSM/Eddie Brock is doing. No. 7 could be useful, but could be pretty buggy in the future, as seen in the past interaction of Valkyrie's CD and 5* Thanos.

    At the end of the day, the players' criteria will also determine whether such counters "exist" in their world even though they exist in reality. I would like to see more of method 2 and various version of method 7. Method 7 could be really interesting, especially if it's a passive. It won't be the passive anti-passive ability that some are asking for but can you imagine R4G and BRB without their strike and protect tiles at the start of the game?

    What if you had a character that either removed or stole special tiles on basic matches? Like how you have characters like 3* Daken or 4* Hawkeye that make strike or attack tiles for Green/Red matches but in the reverse. So say for example with Yellow matches you remove X amount of enemy special tiles or even steal them.
  • HoundofShadow
    HoundofShadow Posts: 8,004 Chairperson of the Boards
    edited March 2021
    Prowler might fit into what you are looking at because he steals fortified enemy SAP tiles by matching them. A variation of this ability in 5* land could be useful. I prefer removing rather than stealing due to the presence of Polaris.
  • Theghouse
    Theghouse Posts: 334 Mover and Shaker
    Daredevil217 said:
    Theghouse said:
    Phumade said:
    I will give them more credit as to their ability to develop a new counter meta.  I personally was surprised at how efficiently they developed the passive shield meta, and then the anti special tile meta. 

    I don’t think they really understood the big picture macro economics.  Specifically they probably didn’t anticipate the sheer volume of resources of high end dupe farming.  This is what I mean.
     
    Elder Tier whales have a full set of 2*,3*,4* dupe farms.  They also have a higher turn ratio in that they complete the cycles faster and faster due to sheer cover volumes.  2nd factor is that each new 4* opens up a new farm slot that will yield cp hp.  I have not fully tracked out the yield  numbers but I’m guessing the predicted cp/hp value per season for a SR 200 player is far higher than what’s need to cover a new 4*/5* per season.

    the net result is that big farm players generate more 5* covers and level chars at faster rates than younger players.  It also means than even if you took cp out of placement, the farm yields enough LT and Cp to keep up with champing releases.


    I completely agree that they are able to develop and even pre-plan synergy within certain strategy sets.  I think a lot of times though they are out of touch by how to develop effective counters in the meta.  Eventually over-dominant defensive teams that don't get effective counters are nerfed out of existence.  

    I don't necessarily agree that the anti special meta has developed well at the 5* level. Gritty's best strike counters are 4* but that's acceptable because gritty is a 4*/5* combo.  BRBitty on the other hand has no real protect counters at the 5* level except Kitty who is a over a year older than BRB and very inaccessible to those who entered 5* play in this meta.  But there are some serviceable 5* options and you can make some 4* work.  I think Mags Sighclops and Colossus' sub-par removal powers were attempts to provide more counters to this meta.

    I think warlock and YJ's healing and Mags and heimdall's airborne might have been attempts to counter Hulk's passive AOE,  Now we've moved on to the match damage powers without iHulk being well handled, which makes me think if there's no other possible counters coming up and forum complaints continue we might see a nerf on iHulk.
    I’d argue BSSM (a 5*... though just barely) is arguably the best strike tile counter (I say arguably because it’s him or Sabretooth depending on what you’re looking for). But BSSM makes so they pretty much don’t exist. 

    As for protects... Thor, Havok and Apoc punch through them as if they don’t exist (problem is they all do it on red). I’d say these are effective counter characters for protect tiles. 
    Definitely true but BSSM is so old and inaccessible compared to Kitty that players who came into 5* play in the Kitty era haven't had a real shot to champ him.  Even Kraven who was post Grocket but pre Kitty is more accessible as a 4* but his reduction can't keep up with Kitty's buffs. Sabertooth and Th4nos were both post Kitty and much more accessible as 4*.

    Between your response and Hound's you covered the characters for anti protects who I consider to be in the serviceable category.  It's important to keep in mind that just because a mechanic to remove protect tiles exists doesn't mean it's a viable counter to the BRBitty combo.  The reason I considered them only serviceable is because it's comparing active powers of varied strength and cost to BRBs passive free protects at start of battle and Kitty's passive boost which will activate just on BRBs freebies.  Most of these powers are 9-12 AP for the chance to remove 2-3 tiles, where BRB needs 6 AP for the chance to bring 4 or more protects back, Kitty needs 6 AP for the chance at a bunch of attack tiles, and 8 AP for 3 protects.  Most of the remove/replace/steal powers are on red and purple so while you chase them you are not denying BRB blue or Kitty yellow.  When you are finally able to get rid of some of them, BRB self accelerates on their destruction to bring more back and fire his nuke.  And if you do get a chance to deal some damage, all these characters' offensive abilities pale in comparison to BRBs hitting power or Kitty's potential attack tile boosts.  Kitty is the only passive SAP remover who can keep up with BRBs freebies and creation and if you just came into 5* play in the BRB era you already missed the biggest answer to BRBitty. 

    I also consider the protect ignore powers only serviceable as opposed to being actual counters.  You can punch through but it doesn't remove them, so you're limited to how many times you can gather AP and fire that single power, with other powers and match damage eventually becoming inconsequential if you can't match the protects away faster than BRBitty spits them out and beefs them up. Drawbacks here are also Apoc's untargetable red, halfThors risk of getting scuttlebutt KO'd even in the back, and Havok just being meh.

    While I did consider 4* counters to Gritty being a 4*/5* combo, I don't consider any 4* counters to BRBitty being a 5* combo, but depending on the team you could certainly get it done by taking Eddie or Th4nos.
  • Sekilicious
    Sekilicious Posts: 1,766 Chairperson of the Boards
    HoundofShadow said:
    Prowler might fit into what you are looking at because he steals fortified enemy SAP tiles by matching them. A variation of this ability in 5* land could be useful. I prefer removing rather than stealing due to the presence of Polaris.
    When Prowler was boosted last week I actively targeted Polaris with him and Medusa so I could use her strike tile against her. It was pretty rng dependent though. I needed a few health packs as well. But a five star combination of Prowler and Sabertooth (in that the tiles do not need to be fortified) might be effective against BRB/Kitty. 
  • Daredevil217
    Daredevil217 Posts: 3,966 Chairperson of the Boards
    Theghouse said:
    Daredevil217 said:
    Theghouse said:
    Phumade said:
    I will give them more credit as to their ability to develop a new counter meta.  I personally was surprised at how efficiently they developed the passive shield meta, and then the anti special tile meta. 

    I don’t think they really understood the big picture macro economics.  Specifically they probably didn’t anticipate the sheer volume of resources of high end dupe farming.  This is what I mean.
     
    Elder Tier whales have a full set of 2*,3*,4* dupe farms.  They also have a higher turn ratio in that they complete the cycles faster and faster due to sheer cover volumes.  2nd factor is that each new 4* opens up a new farm slot that will yield cp hp.  I have not fully tracked out the yield  numbers but I’m guessing the predicted cp/hp value per season for a SR 200 player is far higher than what’s need to cover a new 4*/5* per season.

    the net result is that big farm players generate more 5* covers and level chars at faster rates than younger players.  It also means than even if you took cp out of placement, the farm yields enough LT and Cp to keep up with champing releases.


    I completely agree that they are able to develop and even pre-plan synergy within certain strategy sets.  I think a lot of times though they are out of touch by how to develop effective counters in the meta.  Eventually over-dominant defensive teams that don't get effective counters are nerfed out of existence.  

    I don't necessarily agree that the anti special meta has developed well at the 5* level. Gritty's best strike counters are 4* but that's acceptable because gritty is a 4*/5* combo.  BRBitty on the other hand has no real protect counters at the 5* level except Kitty who is a over a year older than BRB and very inaccessible to those who entered 5* play in this meta.  But there are some serviceable 5* options and you can make some 4* work.  I think Mags Sighclops and Colossus' sub-par removal powers were attempts to provide more counters to this meta.

    I think warlock and YJ's healing and Mags and heimdall's airborne might have been attempts to counter Hulk's passive AOE,  Now we've moved on to the match damage powers without iHulk being well handled, which makes me think if there's no other possible counters coming up and forum complaints continue we might see a nerf on iHulk.
    I’d argue BSSM (a 5*... though just barely) is arguably the best strike tile counter (I say arguably because it’s him or Sabretooth depending on what you’re looking for). But BSSM makes so they pretty much don’t exist. 

    As for protects... Thor, Havok and Apoc punch through them as if they don’t exist (problem is they all do it on red). I’d say these are effective counter characters for protect tiles. 
    Definitely true but BSSM is so old and inaccessible compared to Kitty that players who came into 5* play in the Kitty era haven't had a real shot to champ him.  Even Kraven who was post Grocket but pre Kitty is more accessible as a 4* but his reduction can't keep up with Kitty's buffs. Sabertooth and Th4nos were both post Kitty and much more accessible as 4*.

    Between your response and Hound's you covered the characters for anti protects who I consider to be in the serviceable category.  It's important to keep in mind that just because a mechanic to remove protect tiles exists doesn't mean it's a viable counter to the BRBitty combo.  The reason I considered them only serviceable is because it's comparing active powers of varied strength and cost to BRBs passive free protects at start of battle and Kitty's passive boost which will activate just on BRBs freebies.  Most of these powers are 9-12 AP for the chance to remove 2-3 tiles, where BRB needs 6 AP for the chance to bring 4 or more protects back, Kitty needs 6 AP for the chance at a bunch of attack tiles, and 8 AP for 3 protects.  Most of the remove/replace/steal powers are on red and purple so while you chase them you are not denying BRB blue or Kitty yellow.  When you are finally able to get rid of some of them, BRB self accelerates on their destruction to bring more back and fire his nuke.  And if you do get a chance to deal some damage, all these characters' offensive abilities pale in comparison to BRBs hitting power or Kitty's potential attack tile boosts.  Kitty is the only passive SAP remover who can keep up with BRBs freebies and creation and if you just came into 5* play in the BRB era you already missed the biggest answer to BRBitty. 

    I also consider the protect ignore powers only serviceable as opposed to being actual counters.  You can punch through but it doesn't remove them, so you're limited to how many times you can gather AP and fire that single power, with other powers and match damage eventually becoming inconsequential if you can't match the protects away faster than BRBitty spits them out and beefs them up. Drawbacks here are also Apoc's untargetable red, halfThors risk of getting scuttlebutt KO'd even in the back, and Havok just being meh.

    While I did consider 4* counters to Gritty being a 4*/5* combo, I don't consider any 4* counters to BRBitty being a 5* combo, but depending on the team you could certainly get it done by taking Eddie or Th4nos.
    Yeah I I think powers that ignore protects are the best option. The problem is they are all on red. If Havoks red was yellow and Thor’s green was the one that ignored protects, that’d be a solid trio. But all on red really sucks. Hopefully we get more color options in the future!
  • Warbringa
    Warbringa Posts: 1,299 Chairperson of the Boards
    Like I have said several times before, easy IHulk and Okoye counter can be combined in a new five star character that simply mirrors Quake AoE protection boosted up to 5* levels and has a power that drains the enemies team-up pool.  This character would be very valuable against other 5* too since AoE is really prevalent in 5* meta characters.  

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