How about nerfing Omniscience instead? (Opinion on Kaervek, the Spiteful changes in 4.8)

JinQuiet
JinQuiet Posts: 71 Match Maker
edited February 2021 in MtGPQ General Discussion
So in 4.8 [[Kaervek, the Spiteful]] is going to be rendered effectively useless against many threats in standard and legacy namely, an onslaught of tokens, an onslaught of cards like [[Relentless dead]] or [[Prized Amalgam]] or any wild token generators with this change:
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The [[Kaervek, the Spiteful]] card description, and behaviour changed due to unintended interactions and loops. From:
“While on the battlefield: Other creatures get -2/-2. When another creature is reinforced: That creature gets -3/-3.
Morbid — At the end of your turn: Gain 3 Loyalty."
TO
“At the beginning of each player's turn: Other creatures get -2/-2 until end of turn. When another creature is reinforced: That creature gets -3/-3. This effect can trigger up to 3 time(s) per turn.
Morbid — At the end of your turn: Gain 3 Loyalty.”
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How about now, for the sake of balance, you put the same restrictions on the cards like [[Оmniscience]] so that the event called "Trials of the plains", featured 5 times a week, becomes playable again?
Something like "Cannot be reinforced. Can cast only 1 card for free per turn. When destroyed player discards their hand. When cast for the 2 time, player loses the game"
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Or maybe nerf [[Combustible Gearhulk]] to be activated only 3 times. Just to be on the safe side.
Or maybe make [[Relentless dead]] return to the battlefield only 3 times after it is destroyed.
Or how about [[Prized Amalgam]] can be returned to the battlefield only 3 times?
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[[Kaervek, the Spiteful]] The only standard card that could stop token spawners or just spawners from multiplying uncontrollably is stomped into the ground.

Thank you, developers.

P.S. If loops are the reason the change the card behaviour then be consistent and rework all cards that cause easy to implement loops. Placing a finger on a leak when you're inside a Titanic doesn't make a lot of difference.
"Trial of the plains" Is unplayable mostly due to the fact of [[Оmniscience]] being the way it is and there is still to change in how many years?

Comments

  • Bil
    Bil Posts: 828 Critical Contributor
    edited February 2021
    I think the developers consider 2 kind of loops when they take such a decision.

    On the one hand, you have cards Like omniscience or gearhulk, that do not loop by design but Can get involved with loops when the whole deck IS built around them.
    Those loops Can be long but they are not Infinite, they still rely on a lucky streak of cards to keep running. However, their power makes them kinda problematic for the meta.

    On the other hand, you have cards Like kaerverk, that can create Infinite loops by interacting with only one other card, and just require a third card to unlock an unstopable win condition. In this case, the loop do not rely on Luck, an will put an end to the game instantly (LPS aside) once conditions are met.

    In kaerverk's case though, it's pretty sad to see the card nerfed while it was properly designed and effectively played his paper in the meta by preventing from token abuse.

    (I actually think the Real problem IS that the nerf was too heavy ... The "3 times per turn" really impacts the card utility against token generators ... While the first part of the nerf would have already significantly reduced the loop ability)

    Instead of kaerverk, i would have rather seen the nerf on a card like murder investigation, which is much more likely to be used exclusively as a combo engine in order to supply the effect of other cards.

  • jtwood
    jtwood Posts: 1,283 Chairperson of the Boards
    edited February 2021
    Bil said:

    Instead of kaerverk, i would have rather seen the nerf on a card like murder investigation, which is much more likely to be used exclusively as a combo engine in order to supply the effect of other cards.
    Good call. It's constantly a problem that it can trigger itself.

    Also, is this Kaervek nerf really that bad? -3/-3 per reinforcement... three times... still does some heavy work.
  • Mburn7
    Mburn7 Posts: 3,427 Chairperson of the Boards
    While we're talking about super overpowered cards, anyone see the preview for Dead of Winter?
    Not really a combo piece, but holy **** that will win games on the spot.
  • jtwood
    jtwood Posts: 1,283 Chairperson of the Boards
    Mburn7 said:
    While we're talking about super overpowered cards, anyone see the preview for Dead of Winter?
    Not really a combo piece, but holy **** that will win games on the spot.
    And at MP, only some groups of people will have access to it
  • madwren
    madwren Posts: 2,195 Chairperson of the Boards
    Mburn7 said:
    While we're talking about super overpowered cards, anyone see the preview for Dead of Winter?
    Not really a combo piece, but holy **** that will win games on the spot.

    Yep, Dead of Winter and Faceless Haven look like a great start to a deck.
  • jtwood
    jtwood Posts: 1,283 Chairperson of the Boards
    madwren said:
    Mburn7 said:
    While we're talking about super overpowered cards, anyone see the preview for Dead of Winter?
    Not really a combo piece, but holy **** that will win games on the spot.

    Yep, Dead of Winter and Faceless Haven look like a great start to a deck.
    Add Blood on the Snow: 5 snow gems!
  • boopers
    boopers Posts: 171 Tile Toppler
    JinQuiet said:
    So in 4.8 [[Kaervek, the Spiteful]] is going to be rendered effectively useless against many threats in standard and legacy namely, an onslaught of tokens, an onslaught of cards like [[Relentless dead]] or [[Prized Amalgam]] or any wild token generators with this change:
    Agree that the Kaervek change made him less useful, as he used to eliminate little creatures immediately, and now Greg can cast a token stack during his turn.  We definitely lost the design intent of the effect here.

    The only other solution I can think of is that they could have left him alone, and then said "if a creature would be destroyed from this effect, exile it instead"... which would mostly eliminate the potential for abuse.

    But it was painfully obvious when he came out that there was going to be a problem... they simply cannot globally de-buff creatures in this game without running into all kinds of card interaction problems. 

    The only thing Oktagon did wrong here was not fix this immediately, or better yet... not realize it would be a problem in designing him in the first place.  No one would be this upset about if this had been addressed immediately.
  • BongoTheGrey
    BongoTheGrey Posts: 327 Mover and Shaker
    boopers said:

    Agree that the Kaervek change made him less useful, as he used to eliminate little creatures immediately, and now Greg can cast a token stack during his turn.  We definitely lost the design intent of the effect here.
    Token stacks would be eliminated on the same turn that they are created. Creatures get the -2/-2 at the beginning of each turn, but if a creature is reinforced the -3/-3 triggers on that same turn:

    “At the beginning of each player's turn: Other creatures get -2/-2 until end of turn. When another creature is reinforced: That creature gets -3/-3. This effect can trigger up to 3 time(s) per turn.
    Morbid — At the end of your turn: Gain 3 Loyalty.”

    So if Greg creates more than 2 1/1 tokens they would die on that same turn.

    Only if 2 2/2 tokens are created they won't die since the -3/-3 would leave a 1/1 creature on the battlefield. But most of the times Greg creates stacks of 1/1 tokens
  • Narcoticsagent
    Narcoticsagent Posts: 203 Tile Toppler
    Mburn7 said:
    While we're talking about super overpowered cards, anyone see the preview for Dead of Winter?
    Not really a combo piece, but holy **** that will win games on the spot.
    Its got to be a typo. As written its 100 damage for 10 mana. I would expect it to be 10 + X rather than 10 × X
  • Bil
    Bil Posts: 828 Critical Contributor
    edited February 2021
    Mburn7 said:
    While we're talking about super overpowered cards, anyone see the preview for Dead of Winter?
    Not really a combo piece, but holy **** that will win games on the spot.
    I must confess i didnt understand how someone could design such a card without realizing how hard it could hit the meta ...

    Not only because snow gems look pretty easy to produce and Can Come from both players but Also because, as far as i know, there's nothing in standard that could give Defending player any chance to prevent the damage from a direct spell.

    Players that considered omniscience unbalanced will probably learn to shiver from this one.

    Mburn7 said:
    While we're talking about super overpowered cards, anyone see the preview for Dead of Winter?
    Not really a combo piece, but holy **** that will win games on the spot.
    Its got to be a typo. As written its 100 damage for 10 mana. I would expect it to be 10 + X rather than 10 × X

    Let's hope you're right ... Time will tell !

  • Gunmix25
    Gunmix25 Posts: 1,417 Chairperson of the Boards
    Mburn7 said:
    While we're talking about super overpowered cards, anyone see the preview for Dead of Winter?
    Not really a combo piece, but holy **** that will win games on the spot.
    yeah, that one did not  escape my attention. talk about brutal
  • Tezzeret
    Tezzeret Posts: 193 Tile Toppler
    Don't  worry they will nerf omni.......
    They will  RIGHT when I get it.
  • Mainloop25
    Mainloop25 Posts: 1,760 Chairperson of the Boards
    Fiery Emancipation is pretty ridiculous
  • Tezzeret
    Tezzeret Posts: 193 Tile Toppler
    Fiery Emancipation is pretty ridiculous
    I JUST got this card, and its allowing me to turn 2-3 kill pretty consistently  with koth... i agree its out of controll..... but I love it