**** Elsa Bloodstone (Monster Hunter) ****

HoundofShadow

HP is the main source of revenue. Roster slots contributes to ~60% and character packs ~30%. New characters drive or contribute to their revenues, regardless of whether they are meta or not. Players chase characters even if they are not meta, because they simply love these characters, are completionists or for any other reasons.

You are using meta-ness as the only benchmark to rate new 4*. Using meta-ness is one of the factors, but there are many other factors. When the devs design characters, they don't use meta-ness as the only benchmark. They largely design characters based on a few chosen traits of that character and try to translate them into MPQ, based on their interpretations.

Players who come to forum will be fed with advices about how to progress the game "optimally". These typically include not spending CPs until necessary, not opening packs until they have roster slots and focusing on meta characters first. However, majority of the players don't play optimally and they don't come to forums regularly. 

Apart from this, you are semi-retired, doesn't seem to be a whale and you seems to be really focused on things like damage/ap, time/effort ratio, so this put you in a very niche segment of their playerbase.  Since the dev has to focus on targeting the mass market and whales, I think they are unlikely to be able to satisfy what you want. They might in the future, but I doubt it will happen in the near future. So, continuing to say that further 4* development is a waste of time every time a new (non-meta) 4* character comes up is, I think, a futile effort. Let's say 6* are created and as time passes, I think you will switch to saying further 5* development is a waste of time. 

Bad

I also agree there are a lot of factors on designing characters on devs side and on using them we players. First of all, being a solid 5 player you will have little interest on new 4*, or at least just on the benefits he could give to your champeds 5* on pve.
But that not changes their sinergy with new themes devs are creating and could be very appealing to 4* players.
Second power colors, it could be that this character just has a good sinergy and completes the rainbow with your favourite team,or perhaps another tactical approach.
Third is the fun you get playing with his toolkit and you realize it playing with him. So many times cruzial characters got underrated be us forumers(remember some guy called ihulk?)
And finally this is a pokemon gotcha game. This sistem will not be changing in all ways. It could turn suicide. And it is working well until now.

DAZ0273

I tend to rate 4* (and 5*) by how much fun are they to play (in my opinion). Wolfsbane is not meta but she is great fun to play. I can take Wolfsbane into any fight and she can at least hopefully do something, it might help me win and it is quite fun to mix up. On the otherhand - R4G is not fun to play much at all, his green can actually hurt you and his blue is only really useful for re-starting the Gritty boost train. But you need him for speed and meta combos and so he takes a slot that somebody else might have otherwise. Likewise - Okoye does not excite me in the slightest but unfortunately she is a key combination to teams. So players are going to chase these characters and possibly consider anybody else who can't fill their shoes as irrelevant.

Elsa is going to sit somewhere between quite useful in a given situation to never used. However the devs have to keep trying new things or else we end up with everybody has a devastating passive ala Polaris/iHulk etc.

DAZ0273

I have been looking at the pictures of her some more and I am no gun expert but that seems an extremely awkward way to hold a shotgun - I mean her left hand position on the main picture on the front page of this thread. Wouldn't the finger positions be the otherway around? I don't own a shotgun so maybe I am just nuts but she looks pretty twisted - maybe her wrist is dislocated! That would explain the frown!

Michael1957

Opening her up against a Brute Squad , figurative, in Introducing.... was annoying especially when they put the 3 opening special tiles in corners . I had to play several times 

AdeptusRevolt

From the first node with her - 

- Red fires even without anyone invisible/airborne. 
-  Black to yellow conversion happens even to special tiles and Elsa's own trap tiles
- Trap tiles remind me of playing with Black Cat. However they do damage even when opponent matches them which is a plus.

DigitHAL9000

Always liked shotguns but, seriously, why is this a 4star character?
Too low damage and never heard of her before.
3stars could have been enough.

Vhailorx

HoundofShadow said:

HP is the main source of revenue. Roster slots contributes to ~60% and character packs ~30%. New characters drive or contribute to their revenues, regardless of whether they are meta or not. Players chase characters even if they are not meta, because they simply love these characters, are completionists or for any other reasons.

You are using meta-ness as the only benchmark to rate new 4*. Using meta-ness is one of the factors, but there are many other factors. When the devs design characters, they don't use meta-ness as the only benchmark. They largely design characters based on a few chosen traits of that character and try to translate them into MPQ, based on their interpretations.

Players who come to forum will be fed with advices about how to progress the game "optimally". These typically include not spending CPs until necessary, not opening packs until they have roster slots and focusing on meta characters first. However, majority of the players don't play optimally and they don't come to forums regularly. 

Apart from this, you are semi-retired, doesn't seem to be a whale and you seems to be really focused on things like damage/ap, time/effort ratio, so this put you in a very niche segment of their playerbase.  Since the dev has to focus on targeting the mass market and whales, I think they are unlikely to be able to satisfy what you want. They might in the future, but I doubt it will happen in the near future. So, continuing to say that further 4* development is a waste of time every time a new (non-meta) 4* character comes up is, I think, a futile effort. Let's say 6* are created and as time passes, I think you will switch to saying further 5* development is a waste of time. 

Where do your revenue numbers come from?  I would be surprised if Demi/D3 were very open about their income to anyone other than potential investors.  (also, ieven if that '60% of spending is on HP' is accurate, how much of that revenue is people actually buying HP, versus people in buy clubs , i.e., chasing cp?  Demi/d3 know the answer of course, but I would be shocked if they told us.)

These are largely fair criticisms of me and my position in the playerbase.  I am a semi-retired player and I do have a decently strong 5* roster.  That being said, while I do tend to focus on optimal play and efficiency here on the forums, I do so more because it is the closest thing we have to an objective lens for evaluating the game than because I think "it's the only way to play the game."  I would guess that I enjoy dabbling with off-meta 4*s in ddq as much as the next player, but the fact that running black cat with MODOK or Magik with 4* Torch is a lot of fun does not make those teams competitive. 

and whether you agree with me or not, my argument is not that 4* development is a waste of time for me; I think it's a waste of time for everybody (though I will concede that my viewpoint is, shamefully, subjective, and I can only try to empathize with other players in different positions than me.  I apologize profusely for this unique personal failing! ).  I don't think more 4*s help anybody very much.  as discussed, they don't really help me very much at all, but as I tried to express in my post to Bad, do they even do anything for transitioners?  We have ~100 4*s in the game already, and dilution is quite bad (though the 4* cover drop rate is markedly up for those than play cl10).  Are newer rosters really well served by getting some covers for a new 4* rather than being able to focus their roster growth on existing characters that will help them? 

I agree that players do need a continued path to gameplay variety (as team experimentation is a big part of the enjoyment of the game for a lot of players).  But that's demi's problem to solve. it doesn't change the fact that each new 4* doesn't add much to the game. 

And Bad: I actually said that new 4* development wasn't much benefit to the game even when the new 4*s released were very strong (go check my comments in the polaris thread).  Even if it cost players like me access to polaris and karnak, I think the game would probably be better off if 4*s had been capped at 75 or 80 or so and all that dev time had been spent on a complex new feature for the game (be it 6*s or a meaningful alternative game expansion like what supports was supposed to be) and 4*/5* lands been democratized. That might not be better for demi/d3's bottom line, but that is, again, more of a demi/d3 problem than a player problem. 

KGB

Vhailorx said:

 I don't think more 4*s help anybody very much.  as discussed, they don't really help me very much at all, but as I tried to express in my post to Bad, do they even do anything for transitioners?  We have ~100 4*s in the game already, and dilution is quite bad (though the 4* cover drop rate is markedly up for those than play cl10).  Are newer rosters really well served by getting some covers for a new 4* rather than being able to focus their roster growth on existing characters that will help them? 

Since the dilution ship has sailed in the 4* tier with over 100 characters, the primary thing that new 4* do is help 4* transitioners. The reason is because Demi force feeds the last 4* in PvE for a few months time so that you can relatively easily fully cover them now (especially with shards so that you almost always champ at 13 covers/shards worth). This is a hybrid of what the old 'last 12 4*' were in LT's a few years ago.

If Demi stopped releasing 4* then they'd need another scheme to help transitioners since just randomly getting 4* from LT's is going to take 1300ish of draws to cover a character and the PvE/PvP featured event would only happen 1 time every other year.

In many ways Demi painted themselves into a corner on this because there would be an uproar if they tried to retire older characters due to championing level rewards/feeders (in retrospect retirement would have been the way to go if they knew the game would have lasted so long). In the 5* tier they've decided to semi-retire older characters by simply releasing new ones with massive power creep on health/damage which I suppose they could do on the 4* tier.

KGB

Vhailorx

Kgb:

In cl10, it is now pretty easy to get 15-35 covers for each new 4* before they cycle or if the "latest" category.  But (1) that is arbitrary, because demi could easily modify the latest/vintage cycle of 4*releases stopped, and (2) it is not clear to me that transitioners in lower cls get 4* covers at anywhere near that rate (how well does building a 4* roster work these days for this in cls 7-9?).

I just don't think that argument is a strong counter to my stance on 4*s; it's based on arbitrary collateral effects.  Also, fwiw, I did say that passing out 4*s should be paired with a democratisation of the 4* and 5* tiers (as well as the intro of a new trophy tier), which would obviate your concern.

Bad

Vhailorx said:

I just don't think that argument is a strong counter to my stance on 4*s; it's based on arbitrary collateral effects.  Also, fwiw, I did say that passing out 4*s should be paired with a democratisation of the 4* and 5* tiers (as well as the intro of a new trophy tier), which would obviate your concern.

No, your argument is pretty appealing, but realistically will never happen, because it will take a huge workout in designing concepts for making the game still appealing to all tiers, a new trophy tier absolutely desired and lasting for all life.
As well as rebalance all characters because that democratisation could open metas and broken characters, as well as leaving the most 5* classics as the invincible ones for being owned at great level to vet players.
Designing almost a new game in other words, with all the risks it takes,( and we know if it appears a broken meta the time devs will take to fix it), when they are doing fine right now, even they are designing new features.
On the other hand, other gacha games just leave the good characters exclusively to be bought and they offer for free some mediocre characters copies. At least on this one its posible to progress on a good level without needing to rob a bank.
And just leaving the people who likes to gamble whaling at will.

KGB

@Vhailorx

I play in CL8 and I typically get 20-30 covers before a character rotates out (For example I have Polaris at 279 right now before doing Shield Sim but after finishing HOD PvE). Of course I am not a 4* transitioner either but it says that plenty of covers are available in lower CL's for transition players so that they can at least champ each new 4* while they are in latest (4 months?).

I'm not saying mine is a strong counter argument at all. I'm just saying that the primary thing new 4* give transitioning players is access to 4* champs very quickly. So for those players, new 4* releases are a very good thing.

Demi's decision (conscious or other wise) seems to be that they will semi-retire older 5* so that new players don't have to chase them (minus 1 PvE per year) for any semi-meta team. Right now any 5* pre-Okoye is essentially no longer relevant and thus retired (assuming Okoye came before Thor other wise it's pre-Thor) as BRB/Apoc/IHulk has obviated the need for BSSM/Thanos. In the 4* tier it's all about flooding players with tons of covers for new releases so they can be champed immediately so transitioners can enter 4* land without needing to open tons of LT's so they can start hoarding for 5* land where thanks to semi-retirement they can one day hope to enter with a good latest 3 or specialty store.

KGB

Vhailorx

KGB said:

@Vhailorx

I play in CL8 and I typically get 20-30 covers before a character rotates out (For example I have Polaris at 279 right now before doing Shield Sim but after finishing HOD PvE). Of course I am not a 4* transitioner either but it says that plenty of covers are available in lower CL's for transition players so that they can at least champ each new 4* while they are in latest (4 months?).

I'm not saying mine is a strong counter argument at all. I'm just saying that the primary thing new 4* give transitioning players is access to 4* champs very quickly. So for those players, new 4* releases are a very good thing.

Demi's decision (conscious or other wise) seems to be that they will semi-retire older 5* so that new players don't have to chase them (minus 1 PvE per year) for any semi-meta team. Right now any 5* pre-Okoye is essentially no longer relevant and thus retired (assuming Okoye came before Thor other wise it's pre-Thor) as BRB/Apoc/IHulk has obviated the need for BSSM/Thanos. In the 4* tier it's all about flooding players with tons of covers for new releases so they can be champed immediately so transitioners can enter 4* land without needing to open tons of LT's so they can start hoarding for 5* land where thanks to semi-retirement they can one day hope to enter with a good latest 3 or specialty store.

KGB

Glad to hear that CL8 is viable for 4* collection (do you play PVE and PVP?).  That's good.  But I don't know that the fact that you, an established player, can collect 30ish covers for each new 4* release means that the majority of newer players can do so.  Maybe I am wrong, but I would love to hear some anecdata from other forum-goers.

as for 5*s.  Thor was november 2017 (timed for the ragnarok release).  Okoye was spring 2018 (just after the BP movie).  But I think there are actually several older 5*s that remain useful, if not PVP meta viable. (1) Thanos is still somewhat useful for me in CL10 ( if you have enough match damage, he is arguably faster than okoye + ih for clearing trivial nodes since you don't have to wait for the AI's turn); (2) Strange also remains useful for some PVE nodes (though I often prefer to use 3* strange when I can as he plays better with okoye);  (3) and Hawkeye is borderline essential for the hardest CL10 challenge nodes for those with baby champ rosters (he was also in the PVP meta mix prior to worhty's recent nerf). Some 5*s are also still lurking in the wings with counter-meta potential: archangel if the next dominant 5* release relies on airborne, though he is post-thor, and BB if someone ever runs of charged tiles like pre-nerf Gambit.  So that's Strange, Thanos, and HE that are all 2017 5*s that still have some role in the game, plus two more that might be worth having in the back pocket in case of a BSSM/HE-style renaissance.  I suppose that constitutes semi-retirement for most of the early 5*s, but I still think there are some significant gameplay benefits for those players who were established vets in 2017 or before; and it's basically impossible to collect more than one or two of those characters now without massive massive whaling.

KGB

@Vhailorx ,

I play both PvE and PvP (CL10). Typically I hit 900 in PvP and certainly in Polaris case I went to 900 to get the cover. I also finished her shield training completely and finished T20 in her release event (but got nothing from my alliance which is non-T100) to net an extra cover. Plus the recent boss event awarded 3 covers. I also got 2 more lucky covers for her when I opened 230ish heroics/40ish Mighties once she entered tokens along with a handful of LTs to get 5* Daken. Obviously I shargetted her exclusively when opening those tokens (which added up to 2 more covers).

Boss events aren't normal so take away 2 of the 3 covers there. Remove the extra 1 I got for T20 and say another 1 for Shield Training and another 1 for 900 in PvP plus the 2 lucky draws in heroics/mighties you still get to L271-272 range for 4* transition players who are playing regularly in PvE/PvP and shargetted her hard. Even if they are still in the 11-12 cover range they could potentially get her fully covered via Shield Sim and she still has months to go as a 'latest' in PvE.

KGB

DAZ0273

I also play SCL8 pve and my alliance is nowhere near top 100 - I have a champed Polaris - the other two new releases I have Anti-Venom at 5/2/4 and Negasonic at 1/1/2. I didn't bother hitting 900 in either of their PvP. Covering new 4* releases is definitely easier these days. As I am still in 4* MMR having not champed my 5s yet, I can assure you that the transitioning 4* rosters I see definitely have champed "newer" 4s - especially Karnak who is everywhere but also Legion too. 

HoundofShadow

Her day 2 node is something what a lot of people want: to test new characters with two other characters of your choice (safely).

I paired her up with:

1) IM40 & Riri to test out my theory of sending enemy airborne followed by stunning them when the counter shows '1'.

2) Domino and The Hood for some synergies and thematic effects. The Hood is there to steal ap and to put those yellow aps gained to use. I got a beautiful black match-8 or match-11 when I fired off his Twin Pistols, which neutralise the side effect of ending my turn. 

3) C&D and Mister Sinister: this team was interesting and since no one has use for green match, Elsa can convert those green tiles to black tiles without care. Converting tiles from black to yellow followed by converting other coloured tiles to black was fun to watch. I got a few free matches from this. The majority of the board was indeed black and yellow. 

AdeptusRevolt

Anyone else recognize the day 2 plot? I just couldn't wait to see what the NEXT WAVE was going to be!   

Pair her with a Captain Marvel or (or any Captain), or Negasonic instead of Tabby, or Vision instead of the other android...

Bad

In fact she is pretty interesting, there no was a character feeding yellow and lastly this type of power has become very important.
She counts all type of black tiles, and she turn to yellow too(she turned a black repeater of mine into yellow).
Her traps are quite good in a team not using green, and the good point is that  can be destroyed for dealing damage.
Its actually a really tactical character and she is funny to play.
Now only thing left is more strong characters sending airborne, then she could turn a lot more interesting yet.

HoundofShadow

There are a few 4* characters feeding/creating yellow ap/tiles but most of them are villians. These are those whom I can remember:

Sandman, Kingpin, Mysterio (via conversion of blue to yellow), C&D. 

She is definitely a good addition of yellow tiles creator. 

Only three characters can send enemy airborne: Nova, Riri and Northstar. I can't remember anyone else. 

Bad

HoundofShadow said:

There are a few 4* characters feeding/creating yellow ap/tiles but most of them are villians. These are those whom I can remember:

Sandman, Kingpin, Mysterio (via conversion of blue to yellow), C&D. 

Its true those were feeding yellow but more later on the battle.
Cloack and dagger black side has another similar passive but less reliable for black.
Now I just check playing the 2 and sometimes their passives work together. If starts c&d elsa doesnt activates. But if there are 10 black tiles on board first activates elsa and then c&d. That can be very interesting for a character with yellow and black.