Feels like AI is cheating?

mrixl2520
mrixl2520 Posts: 240 Tile Toppler
in MtGPQ General Discussion
I am back after a several month hiatus from the game, and there is a noticeable difference in difficulty. Granted, several new sets have come out, but the things I’ve noticed aren’t so much about card power level:

1: My opening hand rarely has creatures. I usually build my decks with around 2-4 creatures depending on the PW, and that seemed to work fine several months ago. Now It seems like I hardly ever start with a creature in my opening hand, and sometimes have to wait several turns until I do. I have lost a considerable number of games because by the time I get creatures out I am basically dead. In addition, I try and build in some card draw in each deck and I have been leaning HEAVILY on this just to get my first creature out.

2: The AI gets a free turn almost every first turn. On my first turn it seems like my best play leads to a match 5 for AI of their colors. I call this the “seeded start.”

3: The AI gets extremely lucky cascades far too often. Usually like turn 4 or 5 it gets a huge cascade and plays their hand, sometimes destroying all of my creatures and supports. I call this “the turn."

4: My lands/gem converts don’t do enough, and the AI’s gem converters will create multiple cascades. I can have several in play and they might trigger one cascade, or often they just change the same gems back and forth. The AI can have like 1 converter and trigger a big cascade.

5: Similarly, my gem converting supports self-destruct. Could they not change gems around themselves so frequently?

I realize that confirmation bias is a thing, but this has been happening so regularly its kind of unbelievable. Anyone else feeling this way?
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Comments

  • Shecky
    Shecky Posts: 26 Just Dropped In
    I have started creatureliness quite a lot recently and noticed early extra turns and cascades for Greg.  I am not sure if it's something real or just confirmation bias.  It certainly doesn't happen every dual, but it seems like a lot.
  • Tremayne
    Tremayne Posts: 1,673 Chairperson of the Boards
    The cascades are extremely prevalent at the moment, but it is not my experienced that Greg’s gets more cascades than I do.

    However, you should be able to compete with a decent collection of cards. Which events are you playing - standard or legacy?
  • Bubbles_CS
    Bubbles_CS Posts: 332 Mover and Shaker
    It’s funny that you mention creature-light hands and an inability to draw into creatures. In my more tuned decks that run 3-4 creatures I have also noticed recently in a few games that I didn’t seem to draw into creatures as quickly as I would expect.
  • Rasalghul
    Rasalghul Posts: 162 Tile Toppler
    Thanks for saying the word « cheating » !
  • jtwood
    jtwood Posts: 1,285 Chairperson of the Boards
    The AI is definitely cheating. That’s why we win so much. 

    The AI used to play fair when Manu was around. We whined too much about losing, so they made the AI cheat to let us win more. 
  • mrixl2520
    mrixl2520 Posts: 240 Tile Toppler
    Tremayne said:
    The cascades are extremely prevalent at the moment, but it is not my experienced that Greg’s gets more cascades than I do.

    However, you should be able to compete with a decent collection of cards. Which events are you playing - standard or legacy?
    I seem to have the most trouble with Standard. I think my collection is fairly adequate, though I'm lacking in Ikoria & M21. I get by pretty well with standard decks built out of Ravnica block stuff. 

    Legacy events are a snap as long as I don't get Omni looped *shudder*
  • Volrak
    Volrak Posts: 732 Critical Contributor
    jtwood said:
    The AI is definitely cheating. That’s why we win so much. 

    The AI used to play fair when Manu was around. We whined too much about losing, so they made the AI cheat to let us win more. 
    Have to disagree with you!  Neither Greg nor Manu have ever played remotely close to fair.

    The AI has never strategised about hand order but only uses fixed rules.  It doesn't ever decide to hold cards back for greater effect later; it plays what it can on suitable targets as soon as it can.  PW abilities are tried randomly, not according to any strategy.  Choice of targets is based on fixed heuristics.  There's never been high level goal seeking, e.g. identifying that winning this turn is possibly via a certain play, and then selecting that play.  The gem board is the one place where Manu outplayed Greg, but both of them ignore factors which human players can exploit when choosing the best swap.  And the AI lets you play first every single time.  He doesn't even complain on the forums about it to make it fairer.

    If Greg played fair, the average player win rate would be 50%.  Instead, losses are rare and exceptional, and we get 250+ players on 100% in Seize the Day.
  • bk1234
    bk1234 Posts: 2,924 Chairperson of the Boards
    jtwood said:
    The AI is definitely cheating. That’s why we win so much. 

    The AI used to play fair when Manu was around. We whined too much about losing, so they made the AI cheat to let us win more. 
    I’m going to have to agree here. Even I get perfect scores and neither my Urza or my blue Finale are mastered. 


  • SuperCoolGeezer
    SuperCoolGeezer Posts: 13 Just Dropped In
    edited September 2020
    This is all highly subjective. It also depends on what play style you have.
    Some seek a challenge; some seek a simple relaxing game to escape reality.
    We can see these as the two extreme spectrums for the argument of a "difficult" AI vs a "simple" AI.
    One thing is certain: either AI in large doses can be unhealthy. However, the majority would seek a "simple" AI. The reason for this is simple: most people don't get pissed off from winning vs losing - they may feel jaded; but, that's completely different from hulk style raging over losses. There is a huge difference between "unexciting" and feeling terrible (be it the feeling of failure, depression, uncontrollable rage). Only one of these is highly negative and can have terrible consequences.
    What makes the losses even worse is that most of the losses will be due to an extremely lucky AI. People prefer to lose from an opponent/deck with great skill. It is much more respectable and their win is deserved. However, when the AI random cascades into hand dumping.. well this is not so much skill but uncontrollable luck. Even when I see a great formulated deck, I can respect it and be like "wow, that was awesome" even if I lose. But when the AI gets 2 sets of gems matches and you are left with merely all off-color matches (and your matches never cascade to create 2 gem matches); when you end up drawing the most useless cards of your deck (for the current situation, i.e. not getting removal when you absolutely need it.. and 7/10 cards in your deck is removal); it is NOT a respectable game; but rather, a very frustrating one.
    And don't get me wrong, we can build decks to minimize these risk of bad draws, bad gem matches, etc. However, this does not make you immune unless you build your deck specifically with 99+% consistency. And even then, you will have a frustrating game here and there where you may lose half your life (assuming you rarely lose more than 10% of your life in most other matches).
    To get back on topic, I can without a doubt that the AI has changed significantly, as I can verify all of @mrixl2520 1-5 (anecdotal, but as objective as I can be)

  • SuperCoolGeezer
    SuperCoolGeezer Posts: 13 Just Dropped In
    bken1234 said:
    jtwood said:
    The AI is definitely cheating. That’s why we win so much. 

    The AI used to play fair when Manu was around. We whined too much about losing, so they made the AI cheat to let us win more. 
    I’m going to have to agree here. Even I get perfect scores and neither my Urza or my blue Finale are mastered. 


    This is a baseless statement? Not mastering these cards does not suggest anything.

  • SuperCoolGeezer
    SuperCoolGeezer Posts: 13 Just Dropped In
    Ampersand said:
    SuperCoolGeezer said:
    There are a few theories I have about the actual AI difficulty. These are repeatedly occurring trends/observations I have noticed.
    Let me preface by saying there is definitely a "hard mode" AI and a "easy mode" AI. Lately, I have observed a trend of "flexible" or hard/easy combination mode AIs. Furthermore, the AI for my account has been getting progressively more difficult (which to me is a huge annoyance and burden, as it elongates my games). NOTE: I play this game to relax; I don't want a constant challenge; if I wanted a challenge or stress out, I can go play Arena.
    Another thing before we start is... there are a TON of variables:
    - Does player lvl affect AI difficulty and/or occurrence?
    - Does VIP vs non-VIP affect AI difficulty and/or occurrence?
    - Was the most recent, "no cards work" bug linked to AI difficulty? (based on its random occurrence, no relation to specific cards, only player-side affected, etc)
    - Is there a specific pattern/rotation that we face "hard mode" AI?
    - Is the AI programmed to specific events?
    - Player PW vs AI PW selection (certain things will be more noticeable depending on how much overlap or opposition there is with on-color/off-color mana bonuses)
    - What exactly is "hard mode" AI? Is it really the AI is hard or is it other surrounding factors?
    - Actual deck AI is playing
    - etc, etc
    1. The AI difficulty setting appears to be different from event to event. Perhaps we should call it behaviors. AKH AIs seem to behave a bit more aggressively in their gem matching that show a noticeable difference when compared to other AIs. Perhaps we could say the AI is programmed an extremely specific way and is less flexible. However, I have a feeling some AIs are locked to events while others may not be; I cannot find a definitive trend.
    2. If you watch closely at the AI casting gate lands; you will notice the AI has higher success in getting matches from fewer gates/reinforcements than if you were to have more gates/reinforcements and/or other land converters. HOWEVER, this is based on the AI difficulty settings. What I mean is that if your AI is on "hard" mode you will notice this; however, if your AI is on "easy" mode, you wont notice this.
    3. If you encounter a "hard mode" AI and you don't have any gem converters, you will see a stark difference in your potential gem matches vs the AI gem matches. The AI will have more favorable matches. (Honestly, just playing without some gem conversion is usually pretty miserable)
    4. If you encounter a "hard mode" AI. There comes a time when you have a gem board layout with very very few potential options. At most you will literally have only 1 or 2 potential gem matches. In many cases, these gems will not be very favorable to you, i.e. not your colors, provides an extremely good set up for the AI (this one is more pronounced when you literally only have 1 gem match option, period). This is more rare and you really have to be more observant to notice it; I also believe it is more prevalent during coalition events.
    5. Flexible/Combo AIs. There is a off the bat "hard mode" AI who will cascade like crazy and be very aggressive. Strangely this AI will noticeable switch to an "easy mode" AI after a set number of lethal turns. If you can ride out this wave, you will win.
    6. Flexible/Combo AIs #2: This Al will only switch to "hard mode" under certain circumstances. One of the more consistent circumstances is low AI life total. Almost like a last burst of glory, the AI will literally suddenly ramp up and hand dump if its life total is very low (This is a very rough guess but from about 30-40% life remaining). This is more pronounced if you have a very bad, slow deck.
    7. The starting planeswalkers (gid1, jace1, lil1, nissa1, chandra1) appear to cascade more than other planeswalkers. It appears to be a handicap system? The good thing about this is that it appeared to be working both ways. If I play or if the AI plays, there appears to be more cascading.
    8. Very recently, the AI has been getting very odd 5-match cascades. It has become much more prevalent than in the past. I can't even explain it; but, I just couldn't believe how many times I have seen the AI cascade out of nowhere. The funny thing about this instance is.. it's usually an off-color match (depends on what colors your PW and the AI PW is) and if you take it; you will see the most ridiculous mana cascading ever. And its usually one of those matches, where you definitely have matches in your colors available but no matter which combination of many on-color matches you choose, you can only get a single match - it is near impossible to match 2 sets of gems (the gem board is laid out like that). However, on a whim, if you take what you believe your AI opponent will take.. bam.. rewarded.
    9. The gem board has specific rotations. There are definitely specific games where the gem board is not in your favor or the gems dropping from the "sky" are definitely the colors of your opponent. Much more pronounced when you play a PW that directly opposes the AI PW. So if you are Bolas, and the AI is Huatli2; it may be hard to notice if you get a gem converter out; but, you will notice there are very few gems in your colors and there appears to be a higher drop rate of your AI's PW colors. Another way to see this similar kind of thing is to be playing matching PW colors (so both you and the AI play Bolas1), there are games where you will notice the gems are shifting away from the Bolas primary colors and a bunch of white and green gems are dropping. In this instance, you win if you get the last on-color match; however, if you don't you could be in a world or trouble and you must immediately prioritize off-color mana cascading to speed up the off color gem dropping phase.
    10. The AI gets more difficult during specific times, I have found the difficulty more pronounced the day preceding and during coalition events. But this was more of a "bleeding" difficulty, as events surrounding the coalition event suddenly appeared to get more difficult. The problem with this is I can't tell if its actually a rotating system (i.e. you play x games, then on your nth game you face the "hard mode" AI) or if its actually slotted for specific events. Very hard to isolate this trend
    11. In coalition events, you will face the "hard mode" AI in at least 1 game. If you survive and win this, you will get a perfect score. This was in the past when I played competitively; lately, I'm not so sure its only 1 game anymore. It appears they increased its frequency a little.
    etc etc

    Yeah, well you know, that's just, like, your opinion, man.

    lol. Good to know all my efforts were a waste...
  • Hutzi
    Hutzi Posts: 6 Just Dropped In
    Of course the AI is cheating. There are countless combinations of cards and effects that influence each other. I can't imagine an AI considering all of these possibilities. Except AlphaGo maybe. But a human can. Thats why the AI needs another advantage. As annoying as it is...
  • jtwood
    jtwood Posts: 1,285 Chairperson of the Boards
    Hutzi said:
    Of course the AI is cheating. There are countless combinations of cards and effects that influence each other. I can't imagine an AI considering all of these possibilities. Except AlphaGo maybe. But a human can. Thats why the AI needs another advantage. As annoying as it is...
    This AI gets no advantages. It's the most disadvantaged AI in any game I have ever played. When it started to get advantages, everyone complained, so they took them away. This game does not cheat. It does the opposite of cheating. It makes the game insanely easy.
  • jtwood
    jtwood Posts: 1,285 Chairperson of the Boards
    edited September 2020
    madwren said:
    People feel it's cheating because the skill-to-luck ratio is different than what they expected--especially for anyone who's played paper Magic, where the game proceeds in a very orderly fashion.  

    You can make perfect decisions on your side, but if Greg gets a 60-mana cascade, dumps his hand, and leaves you with three turns of loyalty matches, then it can be hard to overcome. 

    Imagine that in Standard (not Vintage) paper Magic.  "Play an island, tap for 1 mana, summon merfolk, go." "Play a mountain. Tap for 40 mana, summon EVERYTHING." 
    I think this is a good summary of the perception issue. I lost a match yesterday where Greg dumped his hand, which included Quartwood and Bolas Vanguard. I was using Song and discarding down to 1 card each turn. Bolas exiled it. I never got the Song train going again and lost in a couple turns, because Quartzwood will do that.
    The reason I lost is in some part due to Greg getting a lucky cascade (the deck had no gem changers in play or in hand). But the other reason I lost - and the reason I was mad about that loss - is because I failed to play the best version of the deck (Song with either Tamiyo or Bone Miser to mitigate the discard). It was an irritating reminder that the best deck is the best deck for a reason. Playing sub-optimal decks exposes us up to Greg's randomness and gives him an opening.
    tl;dr - We never lose to the AI. We lose when poor planning on our part coincides with a bout of extreme luck in favor of the AI.

  • Volrak
    Volrak Posts: 732 Critical Contributor
    madwren said:
    my best approach (both during deckbuilding and actual play) involved the mitigation of bad luck
    This, more than anything else, is how to reach the top levels of play, and I like the succinctness with which you've put it.

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