Pain based economy

krakenoon
krakenoon Posts: 355 Mover and Shaker
in MPQ General Discussion
It’s not often one can find a post this old that is still relevant, but each point made in this review still applies.

https://longboxgraveyard.com/2016/01/06/marvel-puzzle-quest/
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Comments

  • Dogface
    Dogface Posts: 999 Critical Contributor
    I believe this was before saved covers, one of the best changes in this game imo. But for the rest an interesting read and mostly spot on.
  • krakenoon
    krakenoon Posts: 355 Mover and Shaker
    It was, the writer commented on champs becoming available in an edit.
  • bluewolf
    bluewolf Posts: 5,819 Chairperson of the Boards
    I read that a long time ago....there are somewhat surprisingly few articles about MPQ in the rest of the internet given the game's longevity.

    For a time (vaulting and 50/50 Latests weighting) the roster slots were slightly less painful as you could focus on the characters you were most likely to pull.  Now we have Latests essentials weighting which sort of accomplishes something similar, but to a much smaller degree.

    Anyway, the roster slot pressure was bad, got better, and is now worse than ever IMO.  I  wonder if that writer still logs in  to play.
  • HoundofShadow
    HoundofShadow Posts: 8,004 Chairperson of the Boards
    Are shield hopping common back then?

    I played in late 2017 and have probably shield-hopped at most twice or thrice (3 hours + 8 hours) in my entire PvP matches.

    As far as roster slots is concerned, I'm up to over 230 slots with placeholders.

    Why should casual players be able to catch up easily with players who spent a lot or play competitively? It just doesn't make sense.


  • krakenoon
    krakenoon Posts: 355 Mover and Shaker
    @HoundofShadow

    I think you’re missing the point here. It’s not that F2P should be able to catch up with the other groups, it’s about how expensive the game is whether we’re talking financially or in a temporal sense.

     I for one don’t think it should be unreasonable to expect to keep up dropping a more modest amount. In fact, I would argue that the game is set up for planned purchasing to not exceed $3/mo. with the occasional pack purchase/sale. It’s not really clear in the beginning of our MPQ careers when we should be purchasing and once it is clear, you whale or miss out with no satisfactory in between.

    I also think it’s reasonable to expect to hit a stride keeping game time down to about 1-2 hours a day with the occasional day off (at our discretion as opposed to the devs) with a little extra play time here and there. I have spent the last few months pumping tons of hours and cash (for me) into the game trying to reach a breaking point where I can relax a little only to find those goalposts on the next horizon.

    The fact is if MPQ is not a top 5 priority for you, you are not going to be able to keep up and that’s just not healthy in the eyes of a lot of us. Do we not feel enough pressure from our families and jobs? What ever happened to being able to get lost in a game because you were amazed and comforted by it? Casuals hate is nothing new but where does it stop?
  • HoundofShadow
    HoundofShadow Posts: 8,004 Chairperson of the Boards
    Let's put your spending cap to the real world test. Based on industry performance, about 2 to 5% of f2p mobile players pay for the game. For Candy Crush, the last known % of players paying for the game is 2.3%. 

    MPQ currently has about 100,000 active players based. Someone else might have more accurate data. That put it at 2000 to 5000 players who spend.

    5000 * $3 per month is 15,000. Google and Apple draws a 30% commission. The dev and publisher are left with 10,500 of revenues. The dev team has about 15-20 staff. Each staff draws 3000 salary on average. That's 45000 and we are talking about staff salary only. Going by your $3 model, the dev and publisher would be making a loss of at least 30,000 every month. I don't think it's reasonable to expect them to finance the game from their own savings.

    Studies have also shown that players stop playing when resources are easy to get. Also, players won't buy things if it doesn't satisfy a need.

    The model of F2P have always been based around time or money. Everyone has 24 hours in a day. If players choose to dedicate more time to their real life activities, logically they won't be able to catch up with players who dedicate more time on the game. Everyone has pressure as well, including the dev and the publisher. I don't think people will understand this until they start their own businesses and hire over 15 staffs, experience the challenges of dealing with competitions, ensuring profitability and dealing with rising costs. 

    Next, if two people tells me that they want to beat the Olympic record for 100m run and tell me this is what they are going to do:

    Person A tells me he's going to do a slow jog every day for 1 hour and spend a few dollars on nuts to build up his stamina and health.

    Person B says he's going to train under professional runners or study and adopt what Olympic 100m record setters have been doing, practise hard, spend more time on exercises that will help him improve his game, and eat right.

    Who do you think will be more like to achieve their goal?
  • DAZ0273
    DAZ0273 Posts: 10,275 Chairperson of the Boards
    I was thinking about this and I think I have a better analogy that the fantasy 100m one above where all you need is hardwork and money spent rather than talent, God given physical prowess and years of coaching.

    There are 3 people who like playing a game called Parvel Muzzle Questing, they are all excited to collect the new meta character, Doomsday Dude.

    Player 1 normally spends $20 on the game per month. He decides to stick with that.
    Player 2 normally spends $20 on the game per month. He decides to start spending $100 per month.
    Player 3 spends nothing per month. However he will tell you other players must spend more or suck it up, so he can continue to spend nothing.

    Who will achieve their goal?!? Nobody knows! It is determined quite a bit by RNG! In the meantime, please continue to pay the salaries.
  • krakenoon
    krakenoon Posts: 355 Mover and Shaker
    @DAZ0273

    Thanks for helping clarify there.


    @HoundofShadow

    Maybe you feel I was attacking your intelligence by indicating a lack of understanding but that is not my intent.

    Daz hit on a lot of good points, but one in particular which is that I was not suggesting any studio should be able to make it off of a $3/mo. scenario. Rather, it is a good base to work from (maybe $5 is a little more realistic). Sales, opportunity buys & good-natured investments would help enrich, then the buyers of costumes and the like should fill in gaps.

    At the same time, this is a match 3 game at the end of the day. Spending more time than I mentioned in a match 3 is pretty ridiculous (even if the majority of us do it). The point, for me anyway, is not to build economies based on exploitation of our more base psychology but to offer services and work from there. I’ve watched the evolution of digital games from the start and while I remember having tons of fun playing older games, all I seem to remember of most games since ~2000 are the grinds required to get to meta play or the recent trend of studios reskinning something or grabbing elements from prior games, throwing them into a world with either a rich or poor mythos (doesn’t much matter to me either way) and trying to make as much money as possible off it. Mobile games are one of the last bastions of ingenuity in gaming so its pretty important to nurture that more than exploiting our worst behaviors for me.

    Finally, person A sounds like an actual athlete with a sense of humor while person b sounds like a trust fund baby who would insist on investigations because they think logic dictates that they should have won. Anyone will tell you that you shouldn’t listen to winners as once they’ve won, their perception of what lead to that winning is more about confirmation bias than fact. Most “winners” do so through either a better understanding of whatever system the thing they are winning is based on & singular determination or (more commonly) unscrupulous methods.
  • HoundofShadow
    HoundofShadow Posts: 8,004 Chairperson of the Boards
    To DAZ0273

    There are many segments of players in a game. The dev have in game-data and analytics, along with feedbacks from many other sources outside of the forum to help them with making decision. Since it's impossible to satisfy all groups of players, naturally, some groups of players will receive less attention. So, players in the minority will receive lesser attention because their job is to make decision that makes the most number of players happy, not make all the players happy because it's impossible to do so. However, they'd throw a bone or two occasionally to the minority.

    I don't know what's your definition of whaling is but they had some great deals which were termed as "must buy" or "instant buy" and this came from many other players, especially in reddit. 

    "but this game is the only one I have ever played where actual real world discounts or incentives are never offered."

    Maybe you would like to clarify what kind of "real world discount" or incentives you are expecting? Three 5* colourless covers of your choice with HP, CP, Might Tokens, ISO-8 for $5 or $10? 

    As far as achieving goal is concerned, it depends on what kind of goals they set for themselves. If a new player who starts today, want to champ all characters up till 4* tier within 1 or 2 years, without playing competitively or spending a lot, then their goals are unrealistic. A quick calculation of resources needed will prove this.

    To Krakenoon

    The number of players need to increase in order for this to work. At most 5% pays for mobile game every month. You have determined that playing a match-3 game shouldn't take up much time because it is pretty ridiculous to do so. Obviously, MPQ isn't a high enough priority for you. If other players are willing to prioritise MPQ in their top 5 to-do list, and you aren't willing, then how is this fair for them?

    Let's turn this into something more productive. You have been pretty unhappy about your progress. What's your goal in MPQ and what's the timeframe you set for yourself?
  • DAZ0273
    DAZ0273 Posts: 10,275 Chairperson of the Boards
    edited May 2020
    Hound - I am not expecting anything, I have been playing this game a long time, it is simply an observation and clearly one that strikes a nerve with you. However as usual you provide a completely over the top example which paints your fellow forumite as greedy and entitled, presumably because your argument is flimsy and lightweight. I am not sure what this gains you but people who argue in bad faith often use this tactic to deflect their true intentions. [redacted] And you were the one who set the goal in your strawman example and deliberately phrased it in a way that meant the only answer possible was the one you wanted. But as you missed the fact that talent and physical gifts cannot be purchased or earned your argument falls apart. Usain Bolt won the Olympic sprint record on a diet of chicken nuggets, no amount of money, special diets or hardwork helped his competitors. So no, not all goals sought are either achieveable or evenly weighted regardless when you have to factor in RNG of life.

    **Mod note: Removed inappropriate comment. -fight4thedream
  • Rod5
    Rod5 Posts: 587 Critical Contributor
    HoundofShadow said:
    Are shield hopping common back then?

    I played in late 2017 and have probably shield-hopped at most twice or thrice (3 hours + 8 hours) in my entire PvP matches.



    It’s been going almost as long as PvP has...when I started playing it properly more than 4 years ago there was an already well-established Line community.
  • krakenoon
    krakenoon Posts: 355 Mover and Shaker
    @HoundofShadow

    My personal goal was to move to rostering 5*s before the change over in game economy (a point where the devs feel they have achieved what was desired and changes going forward are more tweaks and releases). Honestly, I’m almost there. The hope was that I could roster all 4s and free up my own options for play-time. Still, this post was more about how insidious using human nature has become by it pervading the gaming industry which used to be more about providing a fun experience. MPQ is just working on a standard business model in the industry & are not the bad guys, I just find the S&P these days to be unsavory.

    My counterpoint to your question of fairness is how is it fair to any player to exploit our lesser impulses? Is it fair to create an addictive game with a high cost of investment and an ecosystem most cannot afford to keep up with?

    Again, I don’t expect to start rostering 5s and instantly be able to dethrone 550s, but should I be competing for the same rewards? I think no, but YMMV. My primary argument for a while now has been to allow players with younger rosters to actually challenge themselves without forgoing rewards which will go to the big daddies.
  • HoundofShadow
    HoundofShadow Posts: 8,004 Chairperson of the Boards
    We are touching on the topic of moral and ethic now.

    Humans, in a way, have been making use of one another to achieve their goals. That's my reply.

    As far as rostering all 4* characters is concerned, it took me about 1 year, and another few months for the rest of the 5*. I'm a 100% FTP, except that I play competitively after champing ~60% of the three stars. So, you don't need to spend money to achieve this, and neither do you need to spend a lot of time on this. However, in the beginning, things always take a longer time. I could have champed 3 latest 5* in the first year, but I didn't want to skip 4* tier.

    Could you clarify:

    "younger rosters"
    "challenge"
    "rewards" in "rewards which will go to the big daddies"?

    Most of the rewards are in progression and placement rewards are extra bonus for doing well. I do agree that high level 5* rosters need to get out of SCL 7 and below.
  • krakenoon
    krakenoon Posts: 355 Mover and Shaker
    I think my biggest gripe is that at the beginning of my MPQ career, it was fairly obvious that once I broke into the 4* tier I would be able to spend HP on deals here and there. Now, it seems all HP will be reserved for roster slots (especially since I don’t see them changing the price increase at 300 slots.) Also, I have been forced out of win based rewards by MMR, so unless I can clear my calendar for the duration of an event I won’t be seeing those HPs in PvP events (I was only able to reach 1900 points in this season’s shield sim).

     I will agree that I will likely have spent less time and money breaking into the 4* tier than someone in say 2017-2018, but again, I’m working with truncated rewards.

    Younger rosters would be those of us who were not in the 4* tier as of the rewards overhaul. Challenge would be playing in the highest SCL your roster can handle or pushing past what you think that is. The lost rewards are placement in those SCLs and anything having to do with PvP. I guess I’m asking to compete reasonably as opposed to being chaff and fodder for significantly more developed rosters.

    As far as 5*s are concerned, I’m all but certain it will take significantly more than a few months to be able to roster all of them when I get there. The disparity between breadth and width of rosters in tier seems like a greater hurdle than ever as well.

     I can’t argue that there are elements of morality and ethics inherent in my points, but there is also the idea of sustainability. While a 6 year old mobile match 3 game is a testament unto itself, a big part of that was how players were treated (like the ability to get covers swapped). Now you have long time vets quitting altogether, people posting bad reviews & what feels like an overall downturn in interest from the player base. Add to that the almost absent dev response and it’s no surprise that slices are getting less populated.
  • Daredevil217
    Daredevil217 Posts: 3,966 Chairperson of the Boards
    krakenoon said:
    I think my biggest gripe is that at the beginning of my MPQ career, it was fairly obvious that once I broke into the 4* tier I would be able to spend HP on deals here and there. Now, it seems all HP will be reserved for roster slots (especially since I don’t see them changing the price increase at 300 slots.) Also, I have been forced out of win based rewards by MMR, so unless I can clear my calendar for the duration of an event I won’t be seeing those HPs in PvP events (I was only able to reach 1900 points in this season’s shield sim).

     I will agree that I will likely have spent less time and money breaking into the 4* tier than someone in say 2017-2018, but again, I’m working with truncated rewards.

    Younger rosters would be those of us who were not in the 4* tier as of the rewards overhaul. Challenge would be playing in the highest SCL your roster can handle or pushing past what you think that is. The lost rewards are placement in those SCLs and anything having to do with PvP. I guess I’m asking to compete reasonably as opposed to being chaff and fodder for significantly more developed rosters.

    As far as 5*s are concerned, I’m all but certain it will take significantly more than a few months to be able to roster all of them when I get there. The disparity between breadth and width of rosters in tier seems like a greater hurdle than ever as well.

     I can’t argue that there are elements of morality and ethics inherent in my points, but there is also the idea of sustainability. While a 6 year old mobile match 3 game is a testament unto itself, a big part of that was how players were treated (like the ability to get covers swapped). Now you have long time vets quitting altogether, people posting bad reviews & what feels like an overall downturn in interest from the player base. Add to that the almost absent dev response and it’s no surprise that slices are getting less populated.
    I’m a 5* player but agree with a lot of your overall points. To break all this down more simply, I want to feel a sense of progression. The shift in rewards and release rate has resulted in the exact opposite. 

    “Define progression”?

    For me, progress comes from champing 5* characters ideally before they leave Latest Legends. This is something I’ve been able to do under the old rewards structure. I had to play an unhealthy amount, but was able to do it. Under the “new and improved rewards” my playing time has doubled and it somehow has become harder to meet my goals. So it’s not just a 4* problem. I was talking about this on Line how the “Colorless Tax” is way too high. Pretty much all rewards got gutted in the same CL. PVP, PVE, Champ Rewards, Boss Events, it’s looking like SHIELD Training, some Vaults, etc.  Heck, even retroactive feeder rewards before the community responded en masse. I know we’ve been asking for an update to Deadpool’s Daily forever but I really hope they don’t touch it. They’ll end up removing all the CP/HP and give us 25 4* shards. 

    Your last two sentences are so so true, by the way. 
  • Phumade
    Phumade Posts: 2,496 Chairperson of the Boards
    Rod5 said:
    HoundofShadow said:
    Are shield hopping common back then?

    I played in late 2017 and have probably shield-hopped at most twice or thrice (3 hours + 8 hours) in my entire PvP matches.



    It’s been going almost as long as PvP has...when I started playing it properly more than 4 years ago there was an already well-established Line community.
    I remember when the first shield hops tactics were developed.  I think it was players froM S.H.I.E.L.D.  You wouldn’t believe the ruckus when people saw scores over 1500.  I’m sure that’s when people started reporting everyone as cheaters.  I don’t think the devs really understood their scoring methodology.  I really suspect they thought 1300 (max prog reward) Was an unreachable tier and reserved as an aspirational prize.  Back in those days having a 1m iso would get you autosandboxed 

    lol
  • A_Wise_Man
    A_Wise_Man Posts: 153 Tile Toppler
    HoundofShadow said:
    Are shield hopping common back then?

    I played in late 2017 and have probably shield-hopped at most twice or thrice (3 hours + 8 hours) in my entire PvP matches.

    As far as roster slots is concerned, I'm up to over 230 slots with placeholders.

    Why should casual players be able to catch up easily with players who spent a lot or play competitively? It just doesn't make sense.


    Shield hopping has been a thing since shields were first introduced in pvp like 5 years ago.
  • HoundofShadow
    HoundofShadow Posts: 8,004 Chairperson of the Boards
    edited May 2020
    It makes Shield Hoppings seem like a ritual for some long-time players.   :o That could be why the devs are hesistant to making big changes to PvPs?

    To krakenoon

    When I read the first paragraph of your last post, I thought I was reading post of a 5* player or a casual long-time player. A casual long time player would be those who champed their first 4* after playing for over 1000 in-game days.

    Are you hitting close to 300 roster slots soon? If not, why are you concerning yourself with roster slot cost at the 300th slot? Judging from your progress, you are probably at around 150 slots unless you whaled a lot. This concern is mainly for really long time players (4-5 years). 

    Forced out of win-based rewards by MMR? I remember your target in PvPs was going for the HP progression reward. I think you have only a few non-champed high level 4* unless things have changed since then? I have been playing PvPs since I was in 2* land and I never had problem hitting 725-800 points. Did you level up your 5* to a much higher level? Something just doesn't match up regarding your MMR. What are the levels of your top 5 characters?  

    As far as placing well for SCL 6 and SCL 7 in PvEs and PvPs is concerned, I could get top 5/10 in PvE SCL 6 with a 3* roster.  In some PvEs in SCL 7, you can get top 10 with a max champed Dr Strange and max champed Dr Thanos. 

    Players can place well in SCL 6 PvPs too because I was getting top 10 (~700-800 points) easily back in 3* land and the highest point for 1st placement was around 850. I'm not sure after if things have changed in PvP SCL 7 after the introduction of SCL 10. Back then, points in SCL 7-9 were jacked up to a ridiculously high level. If you are playing PvPs in the highest level such as 8 or 9, and expect to get top 10 placements, then I think some adjustments to expectations are needed.

    And for the last paragraph, I feel like I'm reading a post of 5* player.
  • krakenoon
    krakenoon Posts: 355 Mover and Shaker
    edited May 2020
    So, I’m a little under a year away from day 1000, closer to 200 than 150 slots and have a champed Worthy and 5 unleveled 5*s. I do still just have the handful of leveled but unchamped  4*s, having added Karnak to that bunch.

    I am a big picture kind of guy, I like to get the lay of the land, plot a course and stay agile. I’ll be pulling some classics soon-ish, hopefully finishing out my 4* recruitment and taking whatever 5s I get. Got a number of 3*s close to level 240 and my 2* farm goes in and out of flux as needed. I agree that my MMR doesn’t add up & I’ve been vocal about it. As of now, I seem to only be able to achieve the 1st CP reward going points based, which Is super close to my wins I end up with. I missed the SSkrull cover in shield sim by 100 points today until I started getting hit and dropped to 1700.

    I think the landscape has changed since you were where I am. While I could place T10 in SCL6, there are a number of times where I have to hit the right slice and even then it’s not guaranteed. In PvP, the big point targets usually involve a somewhat leveled 5* meta, often with a really good teammate. Also, I can take SCL8 in a number of events. I’m kind of glad Maria is our placement reward coming up since I really want the Hellcat covers more than anything else.

    I don’t expect to get T10 in SCL9 of PvP without a significant amount of luck & trickery, maybe I should be playing lower SCLs and going for placement there since I can’t get anywhere great in 9, but I have a sneaking suspicion I’ll just be trading CPs for w/e.

    The reason you probably feel like you are talking to a vet is because I’m pretty voracious when it comes to forums. I necro threads and read some older than my career. Most importantly, I take what vets say to heart & try to use their insights to guide my decisions (knowing it’s apples and cider).

    So, by the end of this year I should be all caught up on some meta 4s (so I’ll be expecting a shakeup there) and keeping any 5s I add below ~350 once I’ve started champing 4s. On the new release schedule, maintaining farms and covering new characters I fully expect to start seeing my 300th roster slot on the horizon around that time. This also assumes I am able to gain the HPs I’ve been missing as of recent to afford said roster slots.


    I think the main thing I want people to take from most of what I have been saying is that most of us have had to play an unreasonable/unhealthy amount for real progress. I have put (while less than SCL10 players) a lot of time in the last few months trying to beat the curve and I think I only fell a little short. I sincerely look forward to cutting PvE time down to around an hour a day and figuring out what I can reasonably achieve in PvP, including HP hopefully.

    Edit: in case it wasn’t clear to others, the link in the OP is from another MPQer.

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