impossible to advance in pvp

When I get to the top 15 it is very difficult to follow, for example, the most used equipment:

Rival team

5* Kitty Pryde (Uncanny X-Men) level 345
4Juggernaut (Fear Itself) level 272
4
Rocket & Groot (Awesome Mix Volume 2) level 278

My team

5* Kitty Pryde (Uncanny X-Men) level 270
4Juggernaut (Fear Itself) level 152
4
Rocket & Groot (Awesome Mix Volume 2) level 131

score at start of battle 56
Score Received 34
WHAT?

When I'm in the top 15, the rotation is 3 or 4 players and very high for my level.

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Comments

  • spidyjedi84spidyjedi84 Posts: 502 Critical Contributor

    So you're complaining that the team you used to climb is being mirrored by other players who climbed to top 15 in PVP Simulator, just with higher levels and variations thereof?

  • Stranger DanStranger Dan Posts: 15 Just Dropped In
    edited 13 April 2020, 20:49

    When you are in the top 15 you already did very well. If anything, with the half built state of your chosen characters you advanced much further than you should have. Not everybody gets to be #1. Not everybody gets to be in the top 10. Not everybody even gets to be in the top 100. Be happy that you got this far instead of expecting that getting a better score than every single other human player should be easy.

  • ArchusMonkArchusMonk Posts: 21 Just Dropped In

    I think the OP might be complaining that the enemy team showed a value of 56 before the match, but when he won he only earned 34. From what I’ve read In other posts, that happens if other have beaten that enemy before you, thus lowering their value. As far as facing the same enemies over and over, that tends to happen as you rise up the rankings. Someone with more experience than I have can confirm these things or expand on them.

  • bluewolfbluewolf Posts: 4,353 Chairperson of the Boards

    @ArchusMonk said:
    I think the OP might be complaining that the enemy team showed a value of 56 before the match, but when he won he only earned 34. From what I’ve read In other posts, that happens if other have beaten that enemy before you, thus lowering their value. As far as facing the same enemies over and over, that tends to happen as you rise up the rankings. Someone with more experience than I have can confirm these things or expand on them.

    Correct and correct. A slight modification on the scoring is if you q someone and leave them aside and hit others, and your score goes up - that would have the same effect. Basically the points you receive are determined by the difference in points between the target and yourself. So the smaller the difference, the less points you get. (Bigger difference, more points.) That could come about from any combination of your points going up after the q and the target's going down.

    The q's points are not updated dynamically - a longtime point of annoyance to players. The only way to have any assurance on the points you are getting is if you are shielded, and hitting a shielded target that you q'd when they were not shielded, so you can then look at the two scores and be able to determine how many points you will get.

    And yes, meta teams tend to rise to the top and thus most of the teams you run into at the top are just the same teams over and over. Any non-meta teams are quickly targeted and lose lots of points (unless they are shielded).

  • VhailorxVhailorx Posts: 4,740 Chairperson of the Boards

    What bluewolf said. Point values in pvp are only accurate as of the time that target was queued. The longer the gap between queing and the match, the more variance you get in actual results.

  • AZRAEL5AZRAEL5 Posts: 7 Just Dropped In

    @Stranger Dan said:
    When you are in the top 15 you already did very well. If anything, with the half built state of your chosen characters you advanced much further than you should have. Not everybody gets to be #1. Not everybody gets to be in the top 10. Not everybody even gets to be in the top 100. Be happy that you got this far instead of expecting that getting a better score than every single other human player should be easy.

    I know that being top 15 or 10 is a very good result, but I cannot advance if I want the last reward of 325 shards, 75 (wins) or 1200 points, being in the top 10 battles are difficult and sometimes impossible.
    I am a low level and that you have to face rivals with 5 * and 4 * champions is difficult.

  • AZRAEL5AZRAEL5 Posts: 7 Just Dropped In

    @bluewolf said:

    @ArchusMonk said:
    I think the OP might be complaining that the enemy team showed a value of 56 before the match, but when he won he only earned 34. From what I’ve read In other posts, that happens if other have beaten that enemy before you, thus lowering their value. As far as facing the same enemies over and over, that tends to happen as you rise up the rankings. Someone with more experience than I have can confirm these things or expand on them.

    Correct and correct. A slight modification on the scoring is if you q someone and leave them aside and hit others, and your score goes up - that would have the same effect. Basically the points you receive are determined by the difference in points between the target and yourself. So the smaller the difference, the less points you get. (Bigger difference, more points.) That could come about from any combination of your points going up after the q and the target's going down.

    The q's points are not updated dynamically - a longtime point of annoyance to players. The only way to have any assurance on the points you are getting is if you are shielded, and hitting a shielded target that you q'd when they were not shielded, so you can then look at the two scores and be able to determine how many points you will get.

    And yes, meta teams tend to rise to the top and thus most of the teams you run into at the top are just the same teams over and over. Any non-meta teams are quickly targeted and lose lots of points (unless they are shielded).

    thanks for explaining the score

  • ArchusMonkArchusMonk Posts: 21 Just Dropped In

    I don’t mean to hijack this thread, but I’ve been wondering about the opposite issue in PVP. How best to fall down the rankings.

    For the first year of playing this game, I used the typical 3* pair of Strange and IM40. I’d zoom up to 6-700 then run out of health packs or teams I could beat and stop. I’d come back a few hours later and be down 2-300 points and climb again. It was annoying at times, but since I play for progression, it made it easy to get to 40 or 50 wins or even 75 in those odd events where I really wanted that reward.

    However, 2 weeks ago, I blew my first stash in the Fan Favorite store and was able to get (among other things) Jugg 5/5/3 and Grocket 5/5/3. Needless to say this has totally changed my game. The time I need to do things in both PVE and PVP has been cut in half and health packs are rarely an issue. However, in PVP this team is too good on defense. I zoom to 7-800 until I can’t beat any more teams, but when I come back I’m only down 100 or less, and the retals in queue are often too strong. I can still get 40-50 wins, but 75 doesn’t seem possible at this rate. I’ve realized that I’ll need to intentionally fall down the rankings and climb back up to reach 75 wins.

    My question is what is the best way to fall down the rankings? Is it better to intentionally lose a bunch of fights or is it better to win my last fight with a bad team or does it make no real difference? Losing on purpose would allow me to control how far I fall, but how long would it take after that to queue up easier opponents? Leaving a bad team on defense should get me several easy retals, but at the end of a climb, I don’t always have an opponent I can beat with a lesser team. Any thoughts or advice would be appreciated. Thanks!

    PS - though this is just my second post, I’ve been lurking around for a year, and all the information has really helped me play better and manage my resources better, so thanks to all the volume posters!

  • bluewolfbluewolf Posts: 4,353 Chairperson of the Boards

    @ArchusMonk

    Best suggestion might be to save a weak team on a queue to hit at the end of your climb. Use a weaker defensive team to beat them. This might be hard to pull off if you’re getting hit and a retal overwrites the node you’re trying to save.

  • ArchusMonkArchusMonk Posts: 21 Just Dropped In

    @bluewolf said:
    @ArchusMonk

    Best suggestion might be to save a weak team on a queue to hit at the end of your climb. Use a weaker defensive team to beat them. This might be hard to pull off if you’re getting hit and a retal overwrites the node you’re trying to save.

    Thank you. I am usually getting hit a bit at the end of a climb, so leaving a weak team may not work out. I’m going to experiment with intentional losses and see how that goes for the rest of the event. Turns out it appears the OP was indirectly asking the same question. Just didn’t phrase it quite right.

  • DyingLegendDyingLegend Posts: 746 Critical Contributor

    Climb faster next time

  • MrPlowMrPlow Posts: 49 Just Dropped In
    edited 14 April 2020, 02:27

    My problem is I get to 1000 points and then all of a sudden it's hard to get opponents over 20 points and sometimes I'll break MMR and get weak opponents worth less than 5 points.

    It's like there is an invisible points wall based on your roster you'll have a tough time breaking through.

  • OJSPOJSP Posts: 791 Critical Contributor

    @DyingLegend said:
    Climb faster next time

    Who are you replying to?

    @ArchusMonk said:
    My question is what is the best way to fall down the rankings? Is it better to intentionally lose a bunch of fights or is it better to win my last fight with a bad team or does it make no real difference? Losing on purpose would allow me to control how far I fall, but how long would it take after that to queue up easier opponents? Leaving a bad team on defense should get me several easy retals, but at the end of a climb, I don’t always have an opponent I can beat with a lesser team. Any thoughts or advice would be appreciated. Thanks!

    Leaving a weak defensive team requires understanding about what weaker team would be
    visible. If they're too weak, then our defensive team wouldn't change. The best way to fall down is to intentionally lose because it's faster, because we won't know when we would get hit (it could be immediately or it could take a long time before we drop enough points to start seeing weaker teams again).

    There are usually specific points that we need to reach before we start seeing different teams and these vary throughout the event and depends on which slice we are playing in. It all depends on how active the other players in the slice are. The short answer to the question of when we would start queueing easier opponents is: either to score more until all the harder teams are below us and we start seeing weaker teams again or to lose our points to below the point where we started seeing the harder opponents and we would get matched against weaker opponents again.

    @MrPlow said:
    My problem is I get to 1000 points and then all of a sudden it's hard to get opponents over 20 points and sometimes I'll break MMR and get weak opponents worth less than 5 points.

    It's like there is an invisible points wall based on your roster you'll have a tough time breaking through.

    1000 points is one of them. I've seen MMR changes at 245 (right at the beginning of events), 290-320 (Lightning Rounds), 575-625, 800-900, 1000, 1200 depending on whether the essential character is a 3* or 4* (or now 5*, but I need more data on this one), whether it's a pick-2 or pick-3 event, our rosters and other players rosters, and the general scores in the slice.

    @ArchusMonk said:
    I think the OP might be complaining that the enemy team showed a value of 56 before the match, but when he won he only earned 34. From what I’ve read In other posts, that happens if other have beaten that enemy before you, thus lowering their value.

    This is why I check the leaderboards to find the actual score of the enemy team. The points we are gaining or losing are calculated by the Elo Rating system with a K of 75, so if we use the formula from https://www.3dkingdoms.com/chess/elo.htm we would know how much we would get. Then we would have to beat that team before anyone else does or wait until they shield. I prefer to hit shielded targets, because I won't give them a retal node. But, it depends on other things too. If they are losing points and they're not showing any signs they're shielding, then I'd hit them. The exception is when they're just dumping their points to enforce or hoping for people to hit so they could enforce. I have no time to participate in this sort of thing anymore.

    I know some people don't care about who they're hitting or who are hitting them, but it all depends on how we play the game and it's a different conversation for another time.

  • A_Wise_ManA_Wise_Man Posts: 150 Tile Toppler

    @MrPlow said:
    My problem is I get to 1000 points and then all of a sudden it's hard to get opponents over 20 points and sometimes I'll break MMR and get weak opponents worth less than 5 points.

    It's like there is an invisible points wall based on your roster you'll have a tough time breaking through.

    There is and there isn't. The points wall is there for everybody if nobody is unshielded above that point value. If you're "breaking mmr" then this is exactly what is going on. I'd shield up a bit and try skipping queues a little later to see if something pops up. If the points where you play are always low (s2, s5....maybe s3 as well), try switching time slots. The time slots where people try to score higher have more shield hoppers, higher scores and hence higher value targets to hit. A hop or two on your part and you'll get your 1.2k

  • JacklagJacklag Posts: 105 Tile Toppler

    @ArchusMonk said:
    I don’t mean to hijack this thread, but I’ve been wondering about the opposite issue in PVP. How best to fall down the rankings.

    For the first year of playing this game, I used the typical 3* pair of Strange and IM40. I’d zoom up to 6-700 then run out of health packs or teams I could beat and stop. I’d come back a few hours later and be down 2-300 points and climb again. It was annoying at times, but since I play for progression, it made it easy to get to 40 or 50 wins or even 75 in those odd events where I really wanted that reward.

    However, 2 weeks ago, I blew my first stash in the Fan Favorite store and was able to get (among other things) Jugg 5/5/3 and Grocket 5/5/3. Needless to say this has totally changed my game. The time I need to do things in both PVE and PVP has been cut in half and health packs are rarely an issue. However, in PVP this team is too good on defense. I zoom to 7-800 until I can’t beat any more teams, but when I come back I’m only down 100 or less, and the retals in queue are often too strong. I can still get 40-50 wins, but 75 doesn’t seem possible at this rate. I’ve realized that I’ll need to intentionally fall down the rankings and climb back up to reach 75 wins.

    Well, now you learned the purpose of having multiple teams. Against Rocket+Juggernaut+Gamora I use BetaRayBill+CarolDanvers+Captain(Worthy). Juggernaut's AoE makes BRB defense tiles proc three times per round and HammerCap's countdown tiles proc Carol's passive making my team nigh invulnerable. 3* LukeCage or Thing may work too, I haven't tried.

    My question is what is the best way to fall down the rankings? Is it better to intentionally lose a bunch of fights or is it better to win my last fight with a bad team or does it make no real difference? Losing on purpose would allow me to control how far I fall, but how long would it take after that to queue up easier opponents? Leaving a bad team on defense should get me several easy retals, but at the end of a climb, I don’t always have an opponent I can beat with a lesser team. Any thoughts or advice would be appreciated. Thanks!

    I use the strategy of puting a weaker team on defense on the first two days of a PvP event for easy wins later on. I found that even weak teams may surprise you in an all out fight, if you are not worried about them surviving it. Like Hood+3Cap+3Hulk is surprisingly good. So is Black Panther + Iron Fist. But if you really can't win with a bad team... hey, your goal is to loose points, isn't it?

  • Rod5Rod5 Posts: 475 Mover and Shaker

    @AZRAEL5 said:
    When I get to the top 15 it is very difficult to follow, for example, the most used equipment:

    Rival team

    5* Kitty Pryde (Uncanny X-Men) level 345
    4Juggernaut (Fear Itself) level 272
    4
    Rocket & Groot (Awesome Mix Volume 2) level 278

    My team

    5* Kitty Pryde (Uncanny X-Men) level 270
    4Juggernaut (Fear Itself) level 152
    4
    Rocket & Groot (Awesome Mix Volume 2) level 131

    ——————————-

    I saw you last event, running lvl 315 BRB and under-covered 215 Chavez...you must have been 700-800 points as you were worth 35 to me. To confirm what ppl are saying, I hit you immediately and the points I got were...35.

    If your cache of opponents is fresh and you hit straight away, you will get what has been offered. It was correct at a point in time.

    Note: your selection of opponents has nothing to do with your position/rank in your bracket, it is based on who is unshielded with a somewhat similar team at a similar-ish score. If you’re at higher points, the teams available to hit for good points will naturally be tougher teams.

    Good luck!

  • AZRAEL5AZRAEL5 Posts: 7 Just Dropped In

    @Rod5 said:

    ——————————-

    I saw you last event, running lvl 315 BRB and under-covered 215 Chavez...you must have been 700-800 points as you were worth 35 to me. To confirm what ppl are saying, I hit you immediately and the points I got were...35.

    If your cache of opponents is fresh and you hit straight away, you will get what has been offered. It was correct at a point in time.

    Note: your selection of opponents has nothing to do with your position/rank in your bracket, it is based on who is unshielded with a somewhat similar team at a similar-ish score. If you’re at higher points, the teams available to hit for good points will naturally be tougher teams.

    Good luck!

    Thanks for the information, regards

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