Ball lightning / Sun Titan weird interaction - maybe WAD [Investigating]

TremayneTremayne Posts: 1,090 Chairperson of the Boards
edited 6 April 2020, 17:42 in MtGPQ Bugs & Technical Issues
Not sure if this is a bug or not, but I do find the interaction curious, so I have chosen to start this thread in the bug forum.

Sun Titan is supposed to return a creature costing less than 12 from the GY, either when entering the battlefield (ETB) or on attack. So this morning I thought why not use this ability to return a powerful creature with haste, that dies at the end of each round. The first creature which sprung to mind was Ball Lightning, which sounded like a cool combo.

When ST ETB and BL is in the GY everything works as planned. BL returns and attacks and then dies.

However, when ST attacks BL returns but just sits there during the attack round and does nothing and the dies.

So it seems that a creature with haste that is not present at the start of combat is prohibited from attacking this round, is that correctly understood and if so, why is this correct behaviour?

I would assume that BL would be allowed to attack, since it has haste.

Can someone enlighten me on the rules for attacking? 

Comments

  • XucachrisXucachris Posts: 92 Match Maker
    Yep I can confirm this is odd behaviour @Oktagon_Support

    I don't have BL so used Killer Instinct and small (less than 11 mana) Haste creatures with Sun Titan.

    When ST was fetched by Killer Instinct, ST fetched Skylight Legionnaire as its "Enter the battlefield" effect. Then on the Attack phase ST fetched Rubblebelt Rioters.

    The result was that Skylight Legionnaire attacked but Rubblebelt Rioters didn't.

    It seems that this is about timing - if a creature, even one with Haste, isn't present before the Attack phase starts then it won't attack?
  • TremayneTremayne Posts: 1,090 Chairperson of the Boards
    @Xucachris - thanks for the feedback. It confirms my additional observations with other haste creatures I have just performed.
  • HeartstoneHeartstone Posts: 99 Match Maker
    This sounds logical, as it works the same way in paper magic. With some explicit exceptions, a creature must be on the battlefield at the start of the attack phase or it cannot be declared as an attacker 
  • TremayneTremayne Posts: 1,090 Chairperson of the Boards
    @Heartstone - then that is probably the correct behaviour, however since there are no description AFAIK on attacking, it would be great to get an answer from octagon
  • XucachrisXucachris Posts: 92 Match Maker
    Tremayne said:
    @Heartstone - then that is probably the correct behaviour, however since there are no description AFAIK on attacking, it would be great to get an answer from octagon
    It might be this. 'Declare attackers' is the second stage of combat, so any creatures fetched after this, even with Haste, haven't been declared and so can't attack.

    "506.
     Combat Phase
    • 506.1. The combat phase has five steps, which proceed in order: beginning of combat, declare attackers, declare blockers, combat damage, and end of combat. "
    Looks like ST will be better used with 'Enters the battlefield' effects then.
  • TremayneTremayne Posts: 1,090 Chairperson of the Boards
    @Xucachris - well, that is surely correct for paper, however many rules in paper are not applicable in MTGPQ, so that is why I’m hoping someone from octagon will turn up in this thread.
  • StormcrowStormcrow Posts: 354 Mover and Shaker
    edited 5 April 2020, 18:24
    Isareth the Awakener works the same way; creatures she brings back won't attack that turn (unless they're reinforcing a creature that's already present), even if they have haste. Not surprised that Sun Titan works the same way...at least it's consistent!
  • Oktagon_SupportOktagon_Support ADMINISTRATORS Posts: 1,110 Chairperson of the Boards
    edited 6 April 2020, 17:43

    Hi everyone,

    Thank you for all the feedback.
    This issue is now under investigation.
  • TremayneTremayne Posts: 1,090 Chairperson of the Boards
    A follow up to this thread that seems to have gone dead.

    If I have Killer Instinct on the battlefield then all creatures have haste, so when Quartzwood crasher deals damage then a token is create, which gains haste and then attacks.

    So @Xucachris your quote from paper is not followed consistently.

    @Oktagon_Support - so any news on this? As you can see there are at least two different approaches to how the attack phase handles newly created token/creatures.

    ... OR is the difference due to one situation is creature based and the other is token based?
  • ambrosio191ambrosio191 Posts: 55 Match Maker
    In my mind Illharg, the Raze-Boar looks like similar to Sun Titan in that they both bring something into play on an attack trigger.  Illharg's haste creature gets to attack, but based on this thread Sun Titan does not.  It seems to me Sun Titan is bugged.

    Killer Instinct isnt the only haste giving effect that lets Quartzwood's token attack the turn it's created, Samut, Voice of Dissent and Mirror March also work.

    Another interaction to support this is Labyrinth of Skophos.  If it exiles a creature with haste at the beginning of combat that creature will still attack.

  • XucachrisXucachris Posts: 92 Match Maker
    Wow, I didn't know this was still an issue. As it happens I got lucky and bagged a Ball Lightning from an elite pack since April so I've just been playing around with this in Training Grounds to see what's what. I also tried a Krenko/Killer Instinct deck to check out the token thing.

    1. Krenko/KI - as with your Quartzwood Crasher example, the tokens created get haste from KI and attack the same turn. So far so good.

    2. Sun Titan/Ball Lightning/KI - I tried this with and without the KI in play, and the result was the same. A Ball Lightning summoned from the graveyard by the Titan as part of it's attack sits there like a beautiful but useless pudding, does nothing then kills itself at the end of the turn. The presence or absence of KI makes no difference to this.

    In other words @Tremayne exactly as you reported back in April. The problem here is that, as you and others have said, we simply don't know the rules in MTGPQ the way we do in paper Magic!

    @Oktagon_Support Is there no way we can have a rule set made available? If it's a matter of resource, I'm sure there would be plenty of skilled and willing helpers from this forum!
  • XucachrisXucachris Posts: 92 Match Maker
    I just had a thought @Tremayne based on the Thassa post you'd commented on - could it be an alternative art bug? I have the alternative art exclusive version of Sun Titan.
  • ambrosio191ambrosio191 Posts: 55 Match Maker
    It's not an alternate art issue, I have both versions of Sun Titan and they both do the same thing.  One other interesting thing I noticed testing is Embercleave still gets it's 3 mana from the Ball Lightning "attacking", even though Ball Lightning does not attack.
  • TremayneTremayne Posts: 1,090 Chairperson of the Boards
    edited 17 September 2020, 08:04
    Another variant, which I do not think has been covered, but it is along the lines of the Quartzwood crasher.

    I had labyrinth of Skophos in play and my opponent had a support that gave haste to the first creature and played with creatures that had haste.

    When LoS exiles the last creature, that creature returns to the board with the graphics associated with summoning sickness, which then disappears as normal in the following turn.

    However, when a hasted creature is exiled by LoS it is able to removed the SS graphics and attack in the same round it was exiled. Is this correct behaviour - according to the rules?
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