Talk about Tokens (WOT)

Tremayne

— Update —
Sorry for not getting back on this subject, but RL have thrown me a curveball, so MTGPQ is currently not a priority. I plan on returning and discussing this in depth on a later date. Feel free to continue the interesting discussion you have going.

— end update —

Tokens have been around since the beginning of MTGPQ, but in the last few sets there has been a dramatic increase in the influence tokens have on the game.

In this post (which is semi-long) I’ll try to discuss some of my observations on tokens. I’ll divide the post into different subjects, which I’ll number, so that it is easier to respond to and differentiate in possible replies.

1. Is token the new “Enrage” mechanism, e.g. overly used?
Let me elaborate on this question. When enrage came out it was seen as a fresh twist on matches. By and large players initially responded with enthusiasm over enrage (which were also supplemented with other mechanisms). However, when this popularity resulted in (almost) all matches being enraged, this enthusiasm turned into despair and frustration for many players.

The big problem with using enrage to often, was that enrage removes a lot of the creativity of deck building. I recall, that my slow moving decks which built up to a huge creature or combo would often take a loss to a deck which managed to deal huge damage even with small and cheap creatures. So my focus changed to just go for win quick (before turn 6 or 7, if not faster).

So taking about tokens specifically, are they used to much and which problems does this cause?
There is a big difference between tokens and enraged, since now all colours have their tokens and multiple ways of generating them. However, I’m beginning to see how tokens seems to limit the deck building. If tokens are dominant, then defensive measures will have to focus on tokens more often than say other elements. 

2. Which defences does each colour have?
Disclaimer, since there are so many cards now and we have both standard and legacy modes to account for, there is a huge risk that I might have overlooked some cards, but I’ll venture into this minefield anyway for two reasons. First to open the debate and secondly to give the reader a chance to add some perspective for me to enhance my knowledge.  

so here goes nothing!

Black has creature removal as the primary way of dealing with tokens, but Black is generally weak in shutting down the support setup generating tokens. So Blacks primary avenue is to load lots of removal.

White has support and creature removal, board clearing and creatures to combat tokens, so White has many avenues to combat token decks. 

Honourable mention: Hallowed moonlight and Azorius Skyguard.

Blue can bounce (return) and steal creatures from the battlefield, plus a few creatures which can hamper token stacks. So Blue has plenty of options available. 

Honourable mention: Azorius Skyguard and Mass manipulation.

Red is best at shutting down the token generating engine with support removal, but if the engine is to fast or bad draws means the token stack(s) get to large, then reds damage will often be to weak to address the token stack sufficiently. However, red has a few removal options that then becomes very important.

Honourable mention: Bedevil and Rakdos(s)

Green is one of the best token generating colours in the game, but is very bad at managing the established token stack, if it where not for Deathsprout! (Side note, in standard green DS is turning out to be indispensable) Since green is good at managing supports, there is a few possibilities however greens is best left with trying to outrun the opponent than trying to manage the race.

Honourable mention: Deathsprout! and Ochrans assassin

3. Preferred token generating setup
(will follow)

Aeroplane

leyline of singularity

Tremayne

Aeroplane said:

leyline of singularity

Thanks, I forgot that in my hurry.

ElfNeedsFood

 In legacy, Blue has Mistcaller

Stormcrow

Tremayne said:

in the last few sets there has been a dramatic increase in the influence tokens have on the game.

Really? I gotta be honest, it hasn't seemed that way to me. Path of Discovery + March of the Multitudes was the worst IMO but Path has finally rotated out after being the strongest uncommon in standard by a country mile literally the entire time it was in standard. Most of the good "leader" cards (Slimefoot, Lathliss, Resplendent Angel, etc.) were in Dominaria or M19 and have rotated out now too.

Thopter Spy Network, Part the Waterveil and Zendikar's Roil have been pretty long-standing "major threats" as well. What in particular from recent sets do people think have made tokens a bigger concern lately? Garruk? Krenko? Amass?

I'll also mention that Labyrinth of Skophos is pretty useful anti-token card, and it's colorless.

Machine

I always board in Ethereal Absolution vs N4 and Huatli 2.

ElfNeedsFood

Machine said:

I always board in Ethereal Absolution vs N4 and Huatli 2.

Is the -1/-1 per reinforcement?

Stormcrow said:

What in particular from recent sets do people think have made tokens a bigger concern lately? Garruk? Krenko? Amass?

I think this is what is intended in part 2 of this thread, but most of the ridiculous stacks I've seen involve Angels, often Divine Visitation with token generators like March of the Multitudes, Trostani Discordant, etc. for White and Green.  I routinely hit 100+ angels for the final blow round.  Losing Luminarch Acsension was a blow to this, but it doesn't stop the angel token dominance.  This remains close to the Vampire level of capability, granted this engine is Mythic level and not Uncommon/Rare level.

Red has the goblin twins (Krenko, Legion Warboss), but that takes a bit more set-up and time to build.  This feels a bit like the Cat / Horse stacks of the past, could get crazy if you let it get out of control, but you have some time to respond.

In any case, I'm not sure this problem is "over-used", but rather it's "something back (still?) in the meta to plan for".

jtwood

No complaints about tokens here

Machine

ElfNeedsFood said:

Machine said:

I always board in Ethereal Absolution vs N4 and Huatli 2.

Is the -1/-1 per reinforcement?

No, it isn't, but IF you have it on the board, before Greg dumps his army of 1/1 tokens, they ALL get killed by Ethereal Absolution.

jtwood

Machine said:

ElfNeedsFood said:

Machine said:

I always board in Ethereal Absolution vs N4 and Huatli 2.

Is the -1/-1 per reinforcement?

No, it isn't, but IF you have it on the board, before Greg dumps his army of 1/1 tokens, they ALL get killed by Ethereal Absolution.

It’s -1 per reinforcement as they enter play, but if they’re already in play, there’s no effect. I thought I remember seeing it hit each zombie token as they EtB. 

Maybe I’m misremembering. 

jtwood

Stormcrow said:

I'll also mention that Labyrinth of Skophos is pretty useful anti-token card, and it's colorless.

Just want to bump this, because this card is really good against tokens, pretty darn good against other creatures... but flat out terrible against haste

It really is a strong card, though

greenmeanie

Leyline of Singularity absolutely destroys token decks