Spidey got hammered - the after effects

Unknown

Ok so there have been many threads about spidey and his nerf. Why it shouldn't have happened. Why it should have happened sooner. Why it was overdone. Why it's sad. Why it's awesome. Blah blah blah.

What I wanna talk about is the after effects of this. Spidey was 1 of the most vital characters in the game, a game changer if you will. Just having him on your team or fighting against him Made it a completely different game than otherwise.

Hulk - hulks value has increased. Without spidey to tame the great beast his anger can just become overwhelming. Build up enough ap to fuel an army and unleash or else feel the wrath of the hulk.

Patch - so the best there is, is still awesome, but their stock has dropped to an extent. Spidey easily controlled the enemy while patch unleashed hell. Now patch unleashes and the enemy follows up with a strike tile accompanied revenge of sometimes epic proportions.

OBW - holy ****. She is EVERYWHERE. She was abundant before, now she is taking over. Not even the 300 would stand a chance vs the OBW army. On 90% of teams and shutting down ap retrieval across the board. Blah.

C mags - his stock is the hardest to judge. Spideys nerf brings him more into the light to let his board control shine. But that shine also attracts the nerf bat ready to smack him in the face. Pump ISO into him and let him reign in his evil glory or hide from the almighty nerf bat and level someone who may hold value over a longer period.

Lazy Thor - value up slightly. His massive health gives him tons of time to gather the ap for that devastating green move, especially without spidey to stop him in his tracks. Just what we needed, the overpowered over represented god of MPQ to gain another advantage.

Any1 with a semi-viable blue- come on, who is gonna bring someone on for their blue ability when you have spidey with a 2ap stun? A lot of mediocre blue abilities are gonna see more semi-effective use.

Falcon- big increase in value. Not many good support characters so all increase in value slightly. Since falcon shares spidey colors he especially gets a nice bump on the viability list.

Loki- becomes less effective in a sense that he can't produce sharing strike tiles off of spideys shields nearly as well.
Becomes a lot better if looking at it as becomes a much better partner for the ever so popular patch since spidey can no longer fill the role properly.

This is all I got for now. What others characters have hide a gain/loss in value due to the spidey changed. So you think I called any of them wrong? Any other comments? Let's hear what you have to say.

Unknown

I am interested in the pvp points after effects scores seem lower overall, scanning the leading alliances show only a select few have broken 1k never mind 1100. Now this could be due to burnout from S1 but maybe maybe not.

You generally could only bring 1 support character along so the Hood will rise in popularity.

I believe Patch does gain the most, as there are ways to tiptoe a hulk but not a berserker rage.

Unknown

Unknown

Chimaera wrote:

I am interested in the pvp points after effects scores seem lower overall, scanning the leading alliances show only a select few have broken 1k never mind 1100. Now this could be due to burnout from S1 but maybe maybe not.

You generally could only bring 1 support character along so the Hood will rise in popularity.

I believe Patch does gain the most, as there are ways to tiptoe a hulk but not a berserker rage.

A great point! We actually were discussing this earlier in alliance chat. I actually can't believe I didn't mention it in the original post. Thanks for pointing it out as it could have a huge effect on point totals.

Nemek

I agree for the most part on your analysis (and it warms my heart to see a thread dedicated to how the change will have an affect on the meta, regardless of how players feel about it.)

I know this thread is very character-focused, but I've been thinking a bit about how it will affect the overall PvP meta...

For myself, at least, there is a significant shift in the value of characters depending on where you are within a tournament point-wise. At the very high levels (1100+...or if this most recent tourney is an example of things to come, 900+), Spidey was close to being a non-factor...and, if anything, was a detriment to your team. I don't see much changing at this range (until Sentry).

I do think it will have an affect on my overall approach to PvP, though, especially during that hour or so it takes to get to the 700-800 range. Before, you could throw Spidey on your team, play for an almost infinite amount of time, and choose whichever opponent strikes your fancy, no matter what team of maxed characters they ran...it didn't really matter, since you were never going to lose a match and never start a new one without close to full health. After a certain point, you'd switch out Spidey for somebody on your A-team (Hood? BP? Patch/CMags?) to reduce the number of hits you were taking and speed up your offense.

But now, there are a few options you can choose to take:

• Just run OBW instead of Spidey during the climb. As controversial as OBW is in terms of power, she is still a liability in terms of her squishyness, but she can still extend the length of playtime. I know I hit OBW teams over just about any other one...there's the occasional cascade + AR + heal that makes me curse her, but it doesn't happen THAT much.
• Run your A-team and then use Spidey for prologue healing. I've run a few tests with the new Spidey in the prologue...probably takes around twice as long to do the same amount of healing. Slightly higher risk of not getting enough blue to do a max heal, but nothing crazy.
• Start running a multitude of teams throughout the PvP climb and switch to your A-team for the last stretch to save on the number of health packs used. Fortunately, my roster is getting deep enough that I can throw a couple of 141 teams out there before things start getting dicey. This will obviously favor players who have large rosters. I know I already do a lot of this in PvE already...keeps scaling down and conserves health packs for the last 30 minute stretch.
• Split up your runs over the course of the PvP more. With Spidey, one run from 0 to 1100 was very possible. But now, maybe spread out your runs so it's more 0 - 400, 400 - 800, 800 - 1100 (shield), and then whatever shield hops you plan on doing that PvP. Most 141 teams will find equilibrium at around the 800-900 mark. This is what I'll likely be doing.

Unknown

@nemek.

I agree with 95% of what you say. The part I do not agree with is the part of the climb being effected only being to the 700-800 range. I can't speak for every1 but myself and I know at least a good 20-30 others that will use spidey on the initial climb all the way until 1000-1100 and only switch to the "A-team" when it was time to start the 2 match and shield until whatever the final goal was. 1200,1300 whatever. The 1100+ game is gonna be 95% non effected but I think the 800-1100 range will see a bigger impact than you currently believe.

Nemek

To be actually on-topic with the character changes...

Hulk - I see the absolute most change with Hulk and that makes me fairly happy to see. Even in the couple of LRs that we've had, I still took Spidey along to face any Hulks - just sitting through Anger animations is annoying enough to merit Spidey's appearance, and if you're just looking for a single stun and then use all of your abilities at once, the new Spidey still works very well.

OBW - Yeah, we're going to see a lot of her. I don't personally think it's a great idea to run her, but she offers some great benefits on long play sessions.

C Mags - I generally see C Mags paired with Patch, anyway...with Spidey nowhere in sight. I feel like people who had really high level C Mags just ran C Mags instead of Spidey, in the first place. I'm not sure if we'll really see an uptick in his usage much more than we already do.

Don't really want to go into specifics with some of the other characters...but what we'll hopefully see is a re-emphasis on defense, which I think will be wonderful to see. With all of the nerfs in the game so far (including the boost nerf), things have been inching it's way towards more balanced team compositions, in terms of offense/defense. While favor still tips towards offense, it looks like defense may get a few moments to shine in the near future.

Unknown

Nemek wrote:

To be actually on-topic with the character changes...

Hulk - I see the absolute most change with Hulk and that makes me fairly happy to see. Even in the couple of LRs that we've had, I still took Spidey along to face any Hulks - just sitting through Anger animations is annoying enough to merit Spidey's appearance, and if you're just looking for a single stun and then use all of your abilities at once, the new Spidey still works very well.

OBW - Yeah, we're going to see a lot of her. I don't personally think it's a great idea to run her, but she offers some great benefits on long play sessions.

C Mags - I generally see C Mags paired with Patch, anyway...with Spidey nowhere in sight. I feel like people who had really high level C Mags just ran C Mags instead of Spidey, in the first place. I'm not sure if we'll really see an uptick in his usage much more than we already do.

Don't really want to go into specifics with some of the other characters...but what we'll hopefully see is a re-emphasis on defense, which I think will be wonderful to see. With all of the nerfs in the game so far (including the boost nerf), things have been inching it's way towards more balanced team compositions, in terms of offense/defense. While favor still tips towards offense, it looks like defense may get a few moments to shine in the near future.

Perhaps more people will shift to c mags now that they need something to fill the blue? People used c mags before without spidey, yes. Now, what will the people who used spidey but no c mags do.


The defense is gonna become much more a factor! That's a love hate thing for me because I love that it's an aspect to the strategy of the game that I think is necessary and welcomed but I teams with LThor hulk and l Dakken or any other immensive health combos are gonna be an OP pain on the ****.

Unknown

I never had a viable spidey, but I've definitely noticed the increase in Hulks and it's leading me to use my LazyCap more often. LazyCap + Hood handles hulk teams pretty well. Get a good set of stun rounds going to unleash abilities on without worrying about anger.

Unknown

I dunno, I've yet to meet a Hulk I actually found all that scary. Usually I just match them down until I have the AP to burst them for the remainder.

Unknown

The aftermath for me personally was pumping my whole daken retirement fund into OBW and Hood. OBW for prolonged play sessions during the climb. Hood as deterrent, once I reach higher ratings.
Positive effect: OBW speeds up climbing significantly, I'm faster than I ever was with Spidey holding me back.
Negative effect: I'm ISO broke and have a *** benchwarming spider sitting around.

For the char evaluation I agree.
Hulk didn't get scary but he's an even bigger time waster now. No permastun and chipping away with strike tiles anymore.
LT,BP teams are more scary now. Either you bring your AP steal squishes or you risk facetanking their game enders.
Shieldbro got more valuable, I'm definitely playing with the thought of leveling him to 120+ to have a reliable stunner.

I think OBW will get the nerfbat next, she's in absolutely every single team I've fought this tourney. At least I'll just have wasted 70k ISO on her and not 140k like on Spidey.

Unknown

Agree with what ppl have posted in general but my thoughts in general...

Hulk - A large increase in his stock but mainly against certain team compositions. If you use strike tiles, especially from patch then Hulk is a massive pain now, you can literally kill yourself on his anger damage procs. If you're not making strikes for the enemy but only yourself it still means a lot of green AP for the other team, if he's paired with a Daken then it can be almost as lethal as him firing off after a beserk rage. If, on the other hand, your team is based around big hitting abilities then the occasional anger is not so big of a deal.

L.Thor - Increases his cascade risk a bit because you can't throw in easy stuns to hold him off til you kill him but not a massive difference. Was a top 3 hero before and still is.

C.Mags - Has a usable blue and some board control so could be a good alternative to spidey as long as you don't mind missing out on the stun. Probably going to get altered at some point but, apart from when he's paired with lots of strike tiles he's probably less useful than L.Thor and is pretty **** on defence unless you let him get 10 purple together or reds after strikes get out. Even then the AI limitation of one use of an ability per turn limits the effectiveness of his red in AI hands.

L.Cap - Becomes the best 3* stunning hero, has a good blue and makes better protect tiles than spiderman. Again somewhat limited on defence thanks to **** AI placement of CD tiles but should see more use. Also now a higher priority hero for PvE where there is no AI defence to worry about.

Hood - With one support hero neutered he's automatically given a boost. Also can't stun him while you kill him to save your precious AP but his low health is always a bit of an issue. Will likely see about the same amount of use because he's not the best climbing hero and was being used as a deterrant anyway.

OBW - Well, as was plainly obvious she's more common now and don't see it changing. I reckon everyone who was using spiderman already has a lvl 85 appropriately specced OBW ready to go and she's SO much better than post nerf spiderman for climbing and probably better than any alternative 3* for a sustained push in the score range where you don't expect to be hit much. I'm seeing her used by ppl with 5+ lvl 141 heroes as they climb which says it all really.

Spiderman - Unless he's over lvl 100 he's not even better than OBW as a prologue healer now, a liability in PvE and i've seen him LITERALLY once in PvP since the nerf and I reckon that's because he was in someone's team and they didn't have a chance to play again post nerf. Real waste of roster space

Unknown

While climbing in Fresh Cut, I find myself using BWGS less often when facing teams with OBW. I was running 115 Psy, 141 Pun, 141 BWGS. I've taken to swapping out Widow every time I see OBW (with 3 in purple) just b/c the ARs were becoming a tad too common. Given that a decent Psy tanks Blue and Black for OBW, it's not a terribly worrisome team, just an annoyance.

Not sure if this rise in OBW lowers all the purple users or if that's just my experience.

Unknown

Riggy wrote:

While climbing in Fresh Cut, I find myself using BWGS less often when facing teams with OBW. I was running 115 Psy, 141 Pun, 141 BWGS. I've taken to swapping out Widow every time I see OBW (with 3 in purple) just b/c the ARs were becoming a tad too common. Given that a decent Psy tanks Blue and Black for OBW, it's not a terribly worrisome team, just an annoyance.

Not sure if this rise in OBW lowers all the purple users or if that's just my experience.

Why are you bothered with 3AR one? that AR will not steal your purple that will be the final blow. Just don't pick purple until they do the first.

Unknown

The issue is Espionage stealing purple, not AR stealing it. If I make a single purple match, then 2 matches for them is sufficient to fire off an AR, hampering the rest of the team. Which makes me ignore purple, which nerfs BWGS' main use in my lineup. I find myself subbing in a 110 Patch (essentially 1-shotting OBW) or a 141 IM40 (to pick up a yellow ability).

Unknown

Riggy wrote:

The issue is Espionage stealing purple, not AR stealing it. If I make a single purple match, then 2 matches for them is sufficient to fire off an AR, hampering the rest of the team. Which makes me ignore purple, which nerfs BWGS' main use in my lineup. I find myself subbing in a 110 Patch (essentially 1-shotting OBW) or a 141 IM40 (to pick up a yellow ability).

Ok, but that's no different form 5AR version your distinction implied.

Unknown

pasa_ wrote:

Riggy wrote:

The issue is Espionage stealing purple, not AR stealing it. If I make a single purple match, then 2 matches for them is sufficient to fire off an AR, hampering the rest of the team. Which makes me ignore purple, which nerfs BWGS' main use in my lineup. I find myself subbing in a 110 Patch (essentially 1-shotting OBW) or a 141 IM40 (to pick up a yellow ability).

Ok, but that's no different form 5AR version your distinction implied.

Alright, I might just be confused. I never see 5 AR in mid-to-high-range pvp. So let's expound.

When I see an 85 OBW in my opposing lineup flanked by 1 or more 141's, I will select my lineup, go to the pre-fight screen and then check her AR cost. If it's only 8, I go back and sub out BWGS. If it's 10+, I move forward, generally unboosted unless another opposing character has me nervous.

If AR costs 10+, that's a near-definite minimum of 3 purple matches, assuming that I make one purple match before their second purple match. By that point, purple is generally starved from the board and it's a non-factor.
If AR costs 8, that's usually 3 purple matches, but only 2 if I make a purple match first, or get some purple on either a cascade or 4-match on another color.

That second scenario is what makes BWGS (and other purple abilities) a liability in my mind. I want purple for BW's Deceptive Tactics, but avoid purple to avoid fueling OBW's AR. So my point was wondering whether purple abilities become less valuable overall with the rise of OBW (which as surmised above, her rise is going to be fueled even more by the loss of Spidey).

Is that more clear?

Unknown

Riggy wrote:

Is that more clear?

It is.
I was wondering as I use CMags most games and the ubiquitous OBW fails to frighten me, either version. Guess with GS you actually run for purples to make the game shorter, with Mags it's okay to play it naturally leaving the first purple pick and start collecting only after that. pick priority id to other colors anyway.

I never played GS unless forced, can't recall see her in play for long time either, (maybe in LR if I played after seed teams).

Unknown

pasa_ wrote:

Riggy wrote:

Is that more clear?

It is.
I was wondering as I use CMags most games and the ubiquitous OBW fails to frighten me, either version. Guess with GS you actually run for purples to make the game shorter, with Mags it's okay to play it naturally leaving the first purple pick and start collecting only after that. pick priority id to other colors anyway.

I never played GS unless forced, can't recall see her in play for long time either, (maybe in LR if I played after seed teams).

She was my 2nd 141 after Punisher, and one of only 3 max 3*'s that I have. So I use her a lot, and with the desert board being fairly common in pvp now, she's pretty stellar. 5/3/5 is a top tier build (in my mind, but I'm probably biased).

But the point more generally is that OBW fits a niche that hits purple skills the most directly (as most teams with OBW have someone else tanking Blue and Black). There are very few good, active, purple skills in the 3* range (BWGS and Mags, really). Actually, as I wrote this post, I realized that my point might not be all that important b/c there are so few good purple skills. So I guess she's probably a lot more terrifying to those in the mid-tiers who want to use... well ****. 2* Mags and BW. Alright, I need D3 to release more good active purple skills so that I can possibly have a valid point here. Daredevil and Loki just aren't making the cut for me.

Let's try this again: the rise of OBW nerfs all the 0/0/5 Fury's that are going to show up in the coming month.

Unknown

Riggy wrote:

pasa_ wrote:

Riggy wrote:

Is that more clear?

It is.
I was wondering as I use CMags most games and the ubiquitous OBW fails to frighten me, either version. Guess with GS you actually run for purples to make the game shorter, with Mags it's okay to play it naturally leaving the first purple pick and start collecting only after that. pick priority id to other colors anyway.

I never played GS unless forced, can't recall see her in play for long time either, (maybe in LR if I played after seed teams).

She was my 2nd 141 after Punisher, and one of only 3 max 3*'s that I have. So I use her a lot, and with the desert board being fairly common in pvp now, she's pretty stellar. 5/3/5 is a top tier build (in my mind, but I'm probably biased).

But the point more generally is that OBW fits a niche that hits purple skills the most directly (as most teams with OBW have someone else tanking Blue and Black). There are very few good, active, purple skills in the 3* range (BWGS and Mags, really). Actually, as I wrote this post, I realized that my point might not be all that important b/c there are so few good purple skills. So I guess she's probably a lot more terrifying to those in the mid-tiers who want to use... well ****. 2* Mags and BW. Alright, I need D3 to release more good active purple skills so that I can possibly have a valid point here. Daredevil and Loki just aren't making the cut for me.

Let's try this again: the rise of OBW nerfs all the 0/0/5 Fury's that are going to show up in the coming month.

I hadn't really thought about her fueling her own pink like that. To change the perspective slightly, possibly matching pink to block her from getting recon is actually causing her to get recon faster and therefore why I seem to get slammed with recon so frkn often. Lol

NorthernPolarity

I still don't think Hulk is going to make it to high-tier: he gets nuked down too hard by all of the power creeped characters in the game. I think he is annoying to fight, but people generally irrationally fear him too much (unless you're running forced strike tile characters like Patch/Daken, I suppose). BP/LT are far scarier to face: they actually do things when they get enough AP. I haven't used Spidey-crutch in a very long time and I've never been afraid of Hulk once the forums made me realize that he's just a giant punching bag.