Vindicate no longer exiles tokens... [Fix in 4.4]

Machine

Vindicate now "destroys" a token stack, at least, that's how the animation looks like. Nontoken creatures are still correctly exiled. This is a post 4.0 issue. It used to work correctly before the update. Please fix. This card is very useful against "Kill X or less creatures" objectives.

Magic:PQ Support Team

According to our game designers, the correct thing is that the token does not go into exile or graveyard, but is removed from the game, as it is being done.

Mburn7

Oktagon_Support said:

According to our game designers, the correct thing is that the token does not go into exile or graveyard, but is removed from the game, as it is being done.

Sounds like that isn't what is happening, though, since it is counting as a "kill" for objectives.
Otherwise that is what should be happening, and what used to happen as well (I think, we couldn't see the exile zone to check for sure)

Tremayne

Mburn7 said:

Oktagon_Support said:

According to our game designers, the correct thing is that the token does not go into exile or graveyard, but is removed from the game, as it is being done.

Sounds like that isn't what is happening, though, since it is counting as a "kill" for objectives.
Otherwise that is what should be happening, and what used to happen as well (I think, we couldn't see the exile zone to check for sure)

Another prime example of why we need proper rules. So the players can understand the correct behaviour of both new and old cards, without posting here.

Machine

Oktagon_Support said:

According to our game designers, the correct thing is that the token does not go into exile or graveyard, but is removed from the game, as it is being done.

Maybe so, but when I Vindicate my opponent's token creature, it counts as a kill, which should not happen (and which used to work correctly).

Tilwin90

While I do understand MTGPQ can distance itself from regular MTG rules where it makes sense, this makes 0 sense. Token creatures exist in both worlds, as do the words exile and destroy (not to mention return to hand).

In paper magic token creatures do end up destroyed, exiled or "returned to hand". Except that when that token would leave the battlefield, it ceases to exist. 

Let's take a paper example so I can prove why this is incredibly faulty:
1) You cast a Liliana, Dreadhorde General. You activate her first ability and get a zombie token.
2) Next turn your opponent casts a Teferi, Time Raveler and immediately -3s to bounce the token.
3) Teferi's ability resolves properly. The token would be bounced to hand but because it cannot exist as a card in hand, it ceases to exist. Teferi's owner gets to draw a card as the ability resolved with a valid target.
4) Because the token was bounced and not destroyed, Liliana's static ability does NOT trigger and you do NOT get to draw a card.

Now if your opponent had used a Nicol Bolas, Dragon-God's -3 for instance to destroy the zombie token, due to Liliana's static ability you do get to draw a card.

These are subtle but very important interactions and from a developer's perspective I don't see the problem of bounce, destroy, exile and "leaves the battlefield" as being separate types of triggers.
Now I don't know how MTGPQ is being developed, but Vindicate is supposed to exile instead of destroying the token. It's just that instead of going into the "exile zone" as a card it should simply cease to exist. With a proper infrastructure there should be no problem to implement this consistently.

Heartstone

The Whole infrastructure discussion is interesting (I'm in IT and I play paper magic if you didn't guess yet 😁) , but actually, it doesn't matter. As long as it doesn't count against the "kill x or less" objectives, I don't care how they implement it...

Machine

It matters to me and it should also matter to @Oktagon_Support. I've been using Vindicate a looooong time for kill X or less objectives and there was never an issue with exiling tokens with this card, or Swords to Plowshares for that matter. I use them both. When these cards worked as expected (exiling tokens, NOT destroying them) the animation also showed a removal without the "destroy" sound and animation. Now, after the patch, I think 4.0, you will see AND hear the destroy animation, which is NOT correct. This can't be WAD, as it used to work correctly before. So @Oktagon_Support I ask you to reconsider and check into this again.

Magic:PQ Support Team

Hi @Machine

After talking to our team this is, in fact, an issue and will get corrected on 4.1.
Thank you so much for the heads up and for the patience.

bk1234

@Oktagon_Support will this fix apply to all exile cards? Isolate is also not exiling tokens. 

Magic:PQ Support Team

@bken1234

I not exactly sure about this, but I think so.

Since it was a programming issue where tokes were not going to the correct area of the game.

So I think it will be applied to all tokens, independent of which card the player cast to exile it.
I will get more info about this!