Reduction in rewards.

tiomono

It hurts seeing resources removed (hp, cp, iso) when systems like shards and scl 10 are being implemented. Many players grumble, some threaten to quit.

But it got me wondering. How many high level players are sitting on stockpiles of this stuff with nothing to spend it on? Could this have contributed to the devs thinking too much is given? Cp not so much, but hp and iso end up getting bloated for some players not because of hoarding to get a selected 5* character covered but possibly because of nothing to spend it on.

I have recently hit a point where I am "post iso". Until I get a new cover I can use for a 5* there is no expense in the game i am not able to keep up with. I have even been pulling the 200 hp cost daily deal from the sinister store. (Actually got a 4* and several 3* from this one. Rng smiled on me a bit)

So I was kind of wondering what other players thought. Are you at a point where you dont feel a resource squeeze? If so, could that contribute to devs not seeing a problem giving out lesser rewards?

DAZ0273

This is the problem with having "one size fits all" solutions to things.

I am always skeptical of the concept of anything being a "healthpack sink" when it comes from higher level players, like they don't have hundreds stockpiled or horded taco's! I did actually buy some healthpacks for Sim and wasn't happy about it, for higher level players I assume this is never really an issue.

Somebody is always a winner and a loser in these situations and it rarely those who need the resources that come off better. The Devs know that Whales will spend whatever and that Vets/Older players wont because they don't have to. So you squeeze the guys below them.

bluewolf

The game simply isn't adding new players, at least based on my observations of bracket counts for the past 7 months (admittedly they are the top end brackets, but they also probably represent a good snapshot of the spenders in general).  There might be some slight increase on the margins but you have about 45 - 50K people in the top 3 SCLs in PVE, it depends on the event as sometimes less people play.  The point is it's not showing any real growth.

If your game isn't adding to the overall quantity of spenders you need to find ways to make more revenue from the ones you have.

Advanced players who have everyone rostered have much more discretion in their use of HP.  Some players build a large pool or just have a lot of flow from champs, but they are a small minority of players.  Even if they don't have big hoards they probably can decide when or where to use HP. 

It's probably a factor in the dev's decision making (players floating with giant hoards) but there are vast swaths of people who are still trying to roster everyone and they probably make up the bulk of spending on the game, whales are a small minority of players.  The reduction in resources hits everyone, it just depends on how fast you feel it and how you react.   (Devs hope it's by spending money.)

I don't think the devs think there's "not a problem" with giving out less of the discretionary resources.  On the contrary, it's simply their plan to do so and hope it helps push more people to spend more.  Whether that's the newer people or the vets who might see their pool drain away, it's all about giving away less of the most-purchased resource.  I mean sure they give you more partial covers now, and that's great, and it's also a convenient way to combine a reason to keep playing (more stuff, more progress) with a reason to keep paying (less HP).

I do hope the devs do something about iso or HP needs, maybe?  At least iso, by reducing the cost to champ a 4.  However ,champs become resource machines and the more champs you have, the less money you need to spend......so I guess we will see.   Some flattening of the rampup in roster slot costs would be nice, I think, but I'm not sure that's in their plans.

(I am post iso with about 12 million, HP I basically spend at will on shields etc without really buying any, although I do grab some bundles sometimes or discounted HP.)

DAZ0273

The first and most obvious thing the Devs could do to help would be to slash roster slots costs for beginning players. How you define a "beginning player" is of course a tough one but I would suggest maybe anybody who has enough roster slots to at least roster the whole 2* tier gets discounted slots up to that point. YMMV. Of course they wont do this because this is a crucial phase of the game to get players to get used to the idea of "Pay to Progress" but that is where it would be a clear victory for the new start players and would not reward Vets with HP saving who have just become too used to being able to hoard everything they can in vast quantities.

4* Transition - I feel you could give a "discount" to 4* characters who are older than a certain period (maybe 2 years?) - again this would help newer players who are more likely to not have resources to cover the vast array of 4* out there and would enable them to broaden their roster whilst at the same time protecting iso costs for new releases which have to be chased to an extent by all.

ThaRoadWarrior

In those early phases of roster building, you pay a single price for 3 slots at once, it's a few hundred hp. I forget exactly when it jumps up to 1k for a single, but the cost actually does ramp fairly well to get you out of the 2* transition I think. It's really the 4* morass where everything bogs down and becomes a neverending sea of characters you've maybe heard of that do some kind of thing...

To me, cutting the cost of champing a 4* down from 375k iso to ~250k (essentially the cost to go from 209 to champ rather than 70 to champ) "feels" like the correct amount to spend on that, coming from the 3* tier. 5* champing happens so infrequently for most that I guess I don't really mind that it costs ~570k, but one would like to see some consistency if possible. Even as a day 1463 player with all but 12 4*s champed, I still "owe" that tier 4 million iso and counting. 

DAZ0273

Actually the 2* phase does something else - it introduces you to Champion levels. At this point right here is where the game snowballs because if you decide to continue playing and growing your roster to the point where you champ a 2* then BAM you just made it so you now have to make a roster slot vs cash in iso decision because you will get a 3* cover in your future. You can't avoid it unlike the 1* tier where you can max out everybody and that is the end of progression.

tiomono

Maybe I could have made this a poll to see what kind of numbers on the boards are not crunched by resource needs. Personally I will always be happy with more but I'm not currently in a position where I feel pressure to spend. I buy no shields, get the occasional 10 pack, buy daily deal single tokens on stores that look interesting, and still can get a roster slot when I need one. Im at 202 slots at the moment, have everyone but sinister rostered and dont really keep dupes. If it's a character I use alot I will keep a max champ until I have a 13 cover replacement. Otherwise I sell as soon as I get one cover for the replacementjust. I am totally caught up on iso needs until new covers roll in for dupes, my 8 unchamped 4*'s, or a 5* cover I can use.

I just thought this could spark interesting discussion for us forum goers not related to balance of characters. But also a very current issue. I honestly do not understand reducing rewards ever. But something in the devs minds has to be making it a non issue from their perspective. 

bluewolf

The roster slot costs do ramp up to the point of being 1K at 77 slots.

That's covering all 47 3's, 1 1*, 13 2's and having 16 towards the vast sea of 4s and 5s.

I'm thinking that they could somehow extend the middle range longer, maybe it hits 1K at 100 slots now.  For example.

The game simply wasn't really built around the idea of having 2/3 of the characters be top tier characters, IMO.  Nor were the resource demands.  (Nor for that matter did they build it around 200+ characters in game.)

We are getting a bandaid with shards and more covers for 4s and 5s, but the resource drain remains crazily stacked against a new person.  I mean the devs are really just spinning plates at the end of the day, trying their best to keep things running and not feel crushingly hard.  They are good at hiding the real problem from new people.  It's like those pictures of icebergs where you see the part sticking out of the water but it's 100X bigger than you think.

tiomono

bluewolf said:

The roster slot costs do ramp up to the point of being 1K at 77 slots.

That's covering all 47 3's, 1 1*, 13 2's and having 16 towards the vast sea of 4s and 5s.

I'm thinking that they could somehow extend the middle range longer, maybe it hits 1K at 100 slots now.  For example.

The game simply wasn't really built around the idea of having 2/3 of the characters be top tier characters, IMO.  Nor were the resource demands.  (Nor for that matter did they build it around 200+ characters in game.)

We are getting a bandaid with shards and more covers for 4s and 5s, but the resource drain remains crazily stacked against a new person.  I mean the devs are really just spinning plates at the end of the day, trying their best to keep things running and not feel crushingly hard.  They are good at hiding the real problem from new people.  It's like those pictures of icebergs where you see the part sticking out of the water but it's 100X bigger than you think.

I guess that's kind of my question though. If high end players hit a point where resources are a non issue, are the devs seeing that and thinking it's ok to slow down the early and mid game?

If this is the case I would like to give feedback saying "please stop taking resources away."

DAZ0273

tiomono said:

Maybe I could have made this a poll to see what kind of numbers on the boards are not crunched by resource needs. Personally I will always be happy with more but I'm not currently in a position where I feel pressure to spend. I buy no shields, get the occasional 10 pack, buy daily deal single tokens on stores that look interesting, and still can get a roster slot when I need one. Im at 202 slots at the moment, have everyone but sinister rostered and dont really keep dupes. If it's a character I use alot I will keep a max champ until I have a 13 cover replacement. Otherwise I sell as soon as I get one cover for the replacementjust. I am totally caught up on iso needs until new covers roll in for dupes, my 8 unchamped 4*'s, or a 5* cover I can use.

I just thought this could spark interesting discussion for us forum goers not related to balance of characters. But also a very current issue. I honestly do not understand reducing rewards ever. But something in the devs minds has to be making it a non issue from their perspective. 

I think it is a discussion well worth having and it does also emphasise how players play the game differently even at more advanced tiers. So thank you for posting it.

As an interesting aside, you are a 5* player, I am a 4* player but I have more roster slots than you do (219 not 209 as I commented elsewhere - I checked!) which seems slightly strange but is perfectly explainable. At some point we would have been at a similar fork in the road and you went one way and I went the other (a decision I am regretting in these circumstances of reduced HP and one in which I have slowed my expansion of 3* dupes).

Jacklag

As a relatively new player, I am still chasing HP to buy roster slots for new covers, though I find the chase much easier now adays, as I'm almost finished collecting 4*s (cut to D3 releasing another 4*)

But thanks all the dillution on 4* tier, I don't feel that inclined to roster everysingle 4* out ther. I very much welcome the chance to get extra shards for those characters I do plan on using. As for Iso, it took me so long to break out of 3* land that I have way more iso than I think I will ever need.

Now, for even newer players, getting that much HP may be more important. I don't think shards matter at all when you are building 3*s. I think if they go ahead with the proposed changes to SCL 7 and above, and keep rewards as they were for SCL 1 to 6, that would be the best of both worlds. 

bluewolf

I of course am not happy that they had a trade-off in rewards, but I understand they are trying to increase revenue.

Another analogy:  Buying a box of cereal or similar product.  Many companies have kept the box size the same but reduced the amount they put in it while keeping the price the same.

The cuts in CP and HP are basically using that principle.  They keep HP and CP in the reward chain (for champ rewards or event rewards) while reducing the amount in there.  They give you the shiny object - shards - (think the prize in the box of cereal) so you don't notice as much.

Yes it puts the squeeze on everyone.  In a sense they should be able to squeeze the top end people more than the lower end, but the fact is that the range of rosters is very nuanced and gradated while their tools of influence are fairly blunt and not really target-able besides using Shield Rank for some offers.  They can't (because there's apparently no way to do this) look at the poor saps with bad champed 4's and offer them, say, Rocket shards.  They can only offer Rocket shards to everyone.

This is the same thing, squeeze everyone a little bit on HP and hope that some more dollars roll in as a result.  In theory you would find it more useful to offer more HP discounts to newer people or people with less roster slots, maybe they would do that if they had the tools available.

DAZ0273

Yeah and we all know what happens when the words "Roster Slot sale" happen. Some guy with 243 max champed 4* announces how he bought like another 100 slots whilst the poor free to play slobs have 50HP to spare after they just rostered Moonstone!

But like I said the 2* tier is where D3/Demi teach us how it is OK to buy things to proceed and that is not going to change because it is a classic (and they would argue vital) FTP game tactic.

bluewolf

DAZ0273 said:

Yeah and we all know what happens when the words "Roster Slot sale" happen. Some guy with 243 max champed 4* announces how he bought like another 100 slots whilst the poor free to play slobs have 50HP to spare after they just rostered Moonstone!

But like I said the 2* tier is where D3/Demi teach us how it is OK to buy things to proceed and that is not going to change because it is a classic (and they would argue vital) FTP game tactic.

Yes to point number 2.  It goes along with those Shield Rank bundles appearing to "help you with your problem" very early on in the game.  I've heard that you can basically trigger the next one very quickly by buying one, applying the covers, etc. which makes them, apparently, nearly chain bundles in practice.

dkffiv

DAZ0273 said:

Yeah and we all know what happens when the words "Roster Slot sale" happen. Some guy with 243 max champed 4* announces how he bought like another 100 slots whilst the poor free to play slobs have 50HP to spare after they just rostered Moonstone!

But like I said the 2* tier is where D3/Demi teach us how it is OK to buy things to proceed and that is not going to change because it is a classic (and they would argue vital) FTP game tactic.

My slots have been 2k for a while now.  Last sale I think I purchased 10 or so extra because that is a ton of HP saved.

The sales are so infrequent that you have to question how many resources you're willing to lock up considering that new chars aren't released all that often.  I've probably purchased another 10 slots since the last sale.

Jormagund

Jacklag said:

But thanks all the dillution on 4* tier, I don't feel that inclined to roster everysingle 4* out ther. I very much welcome the chance to get extra shards for those characters I do plan on using. As for Iso, it took me so long to break out of 3* land that I have way more iso than I think I will ever need.

I'm assuming the 'way more ISO' comment is hyperbole but if not you will hit the crunch eventually.

Six months ago I was in 3* land with all of them champed and what I thought was a whopping 5.5m ISO saved.  In the second week of August I champed Chavez, I have since champed 29 more and am currently 6m in debt.  And that's with mainly hoarding.  If I busted everything now I'd probably get 130 plus more 4 and 5* characters.

My advice: every bit of ISO will be precious.  Not bothered doing an extra clear or two of nodes as it won't effect placement? ...those 100 ISO prizes all rack up.

HoundofShadow

Out of those three resources, ISO-8 is my main crunching point. I still have over 20 4* left to champ.

As for HP, I earn around 2k per week, so it's not an issue for me.

I'm neutral towards CP. If they brought back the old 250CP Support bundle with guaranteed R4 Support, I would rather invest my CP there because Support is broken.

bowla33

Iso crunch very nearly disappears once you clear the 4* hump. Once I eventually after 3.5 years champed all of the 4s, iso started to accumulate incredibly fast. Then I maxed out all my under-covered 5s and it just rolls up. I'm well over 9.5 million iso in the last 6-8 months. It seems difficult but it's just a long, long game to get there. 

IIAlonditeII

CP Reduction? I thought we were getting additional CP rewards?

bluewolf

IIAlonditeII said:

CP Reduction? I thought we were getting additional CP rewards?

More shards, less CP and HP.  Take a look at the charts.  Unfortunately they are not complete......

Vhailorx

IIAlonditeII said:

CP Reduction? I thought we were getting additional CP rewards?

Yeah, it's almost like demi/d3 rolled out this info in such a fashion that it was possible to think that. . .