Ravager Wurm Failed to Destroy a Land (Gate) [As Designed]

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jtwood
jtwood Posts: 1,285 Chairperson of the Boards
edited February 2020 in MtGPQ Bugs & Technical Issues
As I reported in the game, opponent had a gate out and no other supports. I played the Wurm and it failed to destroy the gate. Match was in Standard Training Grounds. 

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  • Avahad
    Avahad Posts: 296 Mover and Shaker
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    Did you damage a creature first? The wurm seems to work that you have to hurt a creature first then it destroys a land
  • Mburn7
    Mburn7 Posts: 3,427 Chairperson of the Boards
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    Avahad said:
    Did you damage a creature first? The wurm seems to work that you have to hurt a creature first then it destroys a land
    Sounds right (note, I have never played this card), since Oktagon has no idea how to program an "and/or" function for cards.  Either all abilities trigger or none do, no matter what the appropriate number in between is.
  • jtwood
    jtwood Posts: 1,285 Chairperson of the Boards
    edited January 2020
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    Avahad said:
    Did you damage a creature first? The wurm seems to work that you have to hurt a creature first then it destroys a land
    There was no creature on the board, so I'm betting you're right and this will be WAD; albeit unintuitively.
  • Magic:PQ Support Team
    Magic:PQ Support Team ADMINISTRATORS Posts: 3,326 Chairperson of the Boards
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    Hello @jtwood

    Thank you for the feedback!
    The card Ravager Wurm is working as designed.
    It only triggers the second effect, if the first happens.
  • Mburn7
    Mburn7 Posts: 3,427 Chairperson of the Boards
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    Oktagon_Support said:
    Hello @jtwood

    Thank you for the feedback!
    The card Ravager Wurm is working as designed.
    It only triggers the second effect, if the first happens.
    That's not correct to how it is worded.  There is nothing indicating that first effect is a condition of the second effect.
    Please either change the wording or change your design please.
  • Magic:PQ Support Team
    Magic:PQ Support Team ADMINISTRATORS Posts: 3,326 Chairperson of the Boards
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    Hi @Mburn7

    Our card's texts have always worked like this.
    The word "then" indicates a conditioned trigger. 
    The first happens THEN the second happens.
  • Mburn7
    Mburn7 Posts: 3,427 Chairperson of the Boards
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    Oktagon_Support said:
    Hi @Mburn7

    Our card's texts have always worked like this.
    The word "then" indicates a conditioned trigger. 
    The first happens THEN the second happens.
    Yes but if it is a non-targeted effect (destroy all creatures, deal damage to the first creature....ect) it seems like it should happen anyway, since that's how it works in paper.  For example, I would never think that I am required to have a creature on the battlefield before casting Kaya's Wrath, since neither of its effects have a target and destroying 0 creatures and/or gaining 0 life should be an option.

    In this case you are correct that it is worded this way (my mistake, I thought it was "first creature"), but something definitely feels off about a lot of these effects.
  • Magic:PQ Support Team
    Magic:PQ Support Team ADMINISTRATORS Posts: 3,326 Chairperson of the Boards
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    @Mburn7
    You're right about Kaya's Wrath, it's already a confirmed issue by our Game Designers and it should receive the fix soon.
    Whenever you find any conditioned trigger with "THEN" that feels off, please report. We'll try our best to focus on bugs and game performance after the next set release.
    Thank you for being such a loyal player!
  • Mburn7
    Mburn7 Posts: 3,427 Chairperson of the Boards
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    Oktagon_Support said:
    @Mburn7
    You're right about Kaya's Wrath, it's already a confirmed issue by our Game Designers and it should receive the fix soon.
    Whenever you find any conditioned trigger with "THEN" that feels off, please report. We'll try our best to focus on bugs and game performance after the next set release.
    Thank you for being such a loyal player!
    I've put out word to my coalition and others to start reporting these instances more closely.
    I don't really play anymore, but if I have a few hours to get through the loading screen I'll see what I can find too.

    There are definitely a bunch of instances of this problem scattered throughout the bug forum, though I can't remember them all now (Fraying Omnipotence, I believe, is an example)
  • jtwood
    jtwood Posts: 1,285 Chairperson of the Boards
    edited February 2020
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    I think the confusion comes from most logical processes of this nature using an "if... then..." statement. It's real easy to assume that Thing A happens then Thing B happens because there's no statement indicating that Thing B is necessarily predicated on Thing A having also been achieved.
    That said, I do appreciate both the expediency of your input on this as well as the clarification of the card terminology. I'm certain I will be referencing this post frequently in the coming months as we spread the word with experienced players and also educate new players on the unique nuances this game brings with it.
  • Volrak
    Volrak Posts: 732 Critical Contributor
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    Yes, better text would be "When this creature enters the battlefield, it deals damage equal to its power to target creature your opponent controls.  If it does, then destroy an opposing Land support."

    The time-consuming part would be identifying all the cards which could be improved in that way!  So it's good to know Oktagon is open to receiving our lists of such cards if we find them.
  • jtwood
    jtwood Posts: 1,285 Chairperson of the Boards
    edited February 2020
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    Did they offer that? I didn't take it that way.
    I thought they were offering to fix cards where "then" conditions were present and not operating in the manner they just described.
  • Volrak
    Volrak Posts: 732 Critical Contributor
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    Maybe I misinterpreted.  But I think it's clear that "Whenever you find any conditioned trigger with "THEN" that feels off" will keep happening, even if cards are working as intended, unless the text is made explicit on the card.  Most players will not visit this thread, and will never discover what "Then" is intended to mean in this context.

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