Yet another alternative to "nerf Bishop"

Reecoh

bluewolf said:

I kind of hope they nerf Thor, as it would be a good reason to retire.

I only recently got 5* Thor champed, and it has reinvigorated my interest. If he and/or Okoye are nerfed that would certainly result in my exodus from the game. Unless they also nerfed the need for scheduling and grinding. I don't see that happening.

Jacklag

wymtime said:

here here is the simple fix.  Make it if an ally is going to take X damage Bishop jumps in front and generates 5 blue AP.

if Bishop is in front already he will not generate any any AP.  This would make it so you could target him first like DP, Thing and players could still use him offensively in boss events and in PVP by keeping him in back.

you could also make him the opposite if he just takes X amount of damage he will generate 5 blue AP so if he is in back you can save him till last and one shot him.

the issue is he and hammer cap do both.  Jump in front and if they are in front will activate their OP passive powers

I would suggest something simpler that solves the problem of both Hammercap and Bishop. Increase the damage threshold for them to jump in front so that it's not trigered by any match by an average 5*, but leave the threshold for AP generation/cooldown adctivation. That new threshold should be higher than the average match damage of a 5* (let's use Gambit, for example, he deals 864 damage on a Purple match at level 350) and average match damage of a 4*+Grocket (base 438+924 from attack tiles = 1.362, also at level 350).

Let's say we increase the jump in front Threshold for both Bishop and Cap to 1200 at level 350 and scale it up and down according to levels. That would let them perform their task at PvE and in 4* land PvP while not immediately breaking 5* PvP. 

You would still be punished for attacking Bishop directly, just like you are for attacking 3* Marvel, Red Hulk, etc. You would be punished for using Special attacks before stunning Bishop, just like you are by using specials without stunning Strange and 4* Star-Lord. On offense, you could choose to put Bishop in front to trigger his powers whenever the enemy team attacks.

And in PvE, Bishop would always jump in front of big boss attacks, or you can use your own matches to put him in front of small attacks.

Vhailorx

Jacklag said:

wymtime said:

here here is the simple fix.  Make it if an ally is going to take X damage Bishop jumps in front and generates 5 blue AP.

if Bishop is in front already he will not generate any any AP.  This would make it so you could target him first like DP, Thing and players could still use him offensively in boss events and in PVP by keeping him in back.

you could also make him the opposite if he just takes X amount of damage he will generate 5 blue AP so if he is in back you can save him till last and one shot him.

the issue is he and hammer cap do both.  Jump in front and if they are in front will activate their OP passive powers

I would suggest something simpler that solves the problem of both Hammercap and Bishop. Increase the damage threshold for them to jump in front so that it's not trigered by any match by an average 5*, but leave the threshold for AP generation/cooldown adctivation. That new threshold should be higher than the average match damage of a 5* (let's use Gambit, for example, he deals 864 damage on a Purple match at level 350) and average match damage of a 4*+Grocket (base 438+924 from attack tiles = 1.362, also at level 350).

Let's say we increase the jump in front Threshold for both Bishop and Cap to 1200 at level 350 and scale it up and down according to levels. That would let them perform their task at PvE and in 4* land PvP while not immediately breaking 5* PvP. 

You would still be punished for attacking Bishop directly, just like you are for attacking 3* Marvel, Red Hulk, etc. You would be punished for using Special attacks before stunning Bishop, just like you are by using specials without stunning Strange and 4* Star-Lord. On offense, you could choose to put Bishop in front to trigger his powers whenever the enemy team attacks.

And in PvE, Bishop would always jump in front of big boss attacks, or you can use your own matches to put him in front of small attacks.

Newer 5*s do in excess of 2000 damage from just a match3 in their primary colors.  That's before any strikes.  Hammercap already has a threshold above 1300 at level 270.  Bishop's threshold is much lower, down near 500 at level 270.

Jacklag

Vhailorx said:

Newer 5*s do in excess of 2000 damage from just a match3 in their primary colors.  That's before any strikes.

I don't think that's completely true. I have BRB at level 255 and his green match does 627 unaided.  If the scaling of damage per level scales linearly, I'm looking at 1165 damage at level 350. And BRB has the highest match damage I've seen among 5*s.

Sure, if you are talking about a level 450 5* against a puny lvl 270 Bishop, his threshold will be far lower. But then again, he will die much quickier and deal a far lower dent to your health. 

But you shouldn't be going against a Bishop team with your high match damage team anyway, just like I shouldn't take my BRB against a Venom team. If your point is that you should win regardless of strategy,then I wholeheartedly disagree.

Vhailorx said:
Hammercap already has a threshold above 1300 at level 270.  Bishop's threshold is much lower, down near 500 at level 270.

Then it seems there is already a workaround Worthy Cap's jump in mechanic. Bishop's threshold just needs to be that much higher.

MoosePrime

Jacklag said:

I shouldn't take my BRB against a Venom team.

Why not?  All those free protect tiles will give you lots of blue and green AP.

KGB

Jacklag said:

Vhailorx said:

Newer 5*s do in excess of 2000 damage from just a match3 in their primary colors.  That's before any strikes.

I don't think that's completely true. I have BRB at level 255 and his green match does 627 unaided.  If the scaling of damage per level scales linearly, I'm looking at 1165 damage at level 350. And BRB has the highest match damage I've seen among 5*s.

It doesn't scale Linearly. Things go exponential after about L330.

Check out the newest 5* Mr Sinister: Note his Black at 450 is 738 per tile or 2100+ per match 3.

(Abilities listed at level 255, followed by 450)
16660 Health / 66964 Health
 21 |  22 |  144 |  164 |  24 | 184 |  91 |  3.5x
 80 |  87 |  574 |  656 |  94 | 738 |  365 |  3.5x

And virtually ONLY the 5* players with L450+ champs that have a Bishop problem. And it's not 270 Bishops they are facing. It's typically 350+ Bishops from other 5* players with a host of 5* champs and very high level Bishops.

Players in the 350 and under range aren't having Bishop issues because a skip or two generally gives you a non-bishop team. There is plenty of variety there in MMR. It's champed 5* MMR that has the problems.

KGB

Vhailorx

Jacklag said:

Vhailorx said:

Newer 5*s do in excess of 2000 damage from just a match3 in their primary colors.  That's before any strikes.

I don't think that's completely true. I have BRB at level 255 and his green match does 627 unaided.  If the scaling of damage per level scales linearly, I'm looking at 1165 damage at level 350. And BRB has the highest match damage I've seen among 5*s.

Sure, if you are talking about a level 450 5* against a puny lvl 270 Bishop, his threshold will be far lower. But then again, he will die much quickier and deal a far lower dent to your health. 

But you shouldn't be going against a Bishop team with your high match damage team anyway, just like I shouldn't take my BRB against a Venom team. If your point is that you should win regardless of strategy,then I wholeheartedly disagree.

Vhailorx said:
Hammercap already has a threshold above 1300 at level 270.  Bishop's threshold is much lower, down near 500 at level 270.

Then it seems there is already a workaround Worthy Cap's jump in mechanic. Bishop's threshold just needs to be that much higher.

 I think this is a pretty clear example of one area where the 3*/4* experience does not really map to the 5* experience very well at all.

Match damage (and power strength and health) do not scale linearly.  There is an inflection point after which stats go up MUCH faster.  From 255-450, 5* stats go up about 4x.  From 255-400 is about a 2x increase. And from 400-450 is the other 2x.  It's very backloaded.  BRB at level 450 has a base match damage in green a little over 800 per tile.  That's 2400 for a single match 3. 

As for me taking my 450+ characters against a bishop, that is entirely the point.  When you get to 5* mmr, your only visible opponents above a certain threshold (for me it's about 500-600 points in slice 4/5 PvP) are bishop + X teams (these are only teams that people leave unshielded).  I basically cannot avoid bishop unless I: (1) ignore PvP entirely; (2) never climb high enough to get into the bishop zone; (3) spend many thousands of iso skipping and get lucky to find weaker opponents; or (4) hop on Line to start lining up grills and shield hopping.  Those are not good options.  And don't suggest I just play 4* teams to avoid the match damage issue.  That is actually counterproductive because 5* players can still see me when I do that.  Every victory will be a net point loss as gritty teams feast on my soft 4* grills.

wymtime

Jacklag said:

wymtime said:

here here is the simple fix.  Make it if an ally is going to take X damage Bishop jumps in front and generates 5 blue AP.

if Bishop is in front already he will not generate any any AP.  This would make it so you could target him first like DP, Thing and players could still use him offensively in boss events and in PVP by keeping him in back.

you could also make him the opposite if he just takes X amount of damage he will generate 5 blue AP so if he is in back you can save him till last and one shot him.

the issue is he and hammer cap do both.  Jump in front and if they are in front will activate their OP passive powers

I would suggest something simpler that solves the problem of both Hammercap and Bishop. Increase the damage threshold for them to jump in front so that it's not trigered by any match by an average 5*, but leave the threshold for AP generation/cooldown adctivation. That new threshold should be higher than the average match damage of a 5* (let's use Gambit, for example, he deals 864 damage on a Purple match at level 350) and average match damage of a 4*+Grocket (base 438+924 from attack tiles = 1.362, also at level 350).

Let's say we increase the jump in front Threshold for both Bishop and Cap to 1200 at level 350 and scale it up and down according to levels. That would let them perform their task at PvE and in 4* land PvP while not immediately breaking 5* PvP. 

You would still be punished for attacking Bishop directly, just like you are for attacking 3* Marvel, Red Hulk, etc. You would be punished for using Special attacks before stunning Bishop, just like you are by using specials without stunning Strange and 4* Star-Lord. On offense, you could choose to put Bishop in front to trigger his powers whenever the enemy team attacks.

And in PvE, Bishop would always jump in front of big boss attacks, or you can use your own matches to put him in front of small attacks.

I think the simple is just make it one power that when they jump in front they can generate the AP.  This will allow a player to punch up in PVP and use in boss events in PVE.

if you make Bishop or Cap like Rhulk or 3* marvel they will be good for 4* players where they tank but will not let them punch up in PVP like they do now.  

I would rather see a 4* that can help players punch up on offense but might not be as great on defense.

Jacklag

Vhailorx said:

Match damage (and power strength and health) do not scale linearly.  There is an inflection point after which stats go up MUCH faster.  From 255-450, 5* stats go up about 4x.  From 255-400 is about a 2x increase. And from 400-450 is other 2x.  It's very backloaded.  BRB at level 450 has a base match damage in green a little over 800 per tile.  That's 2400 for a single match 3.  

Ok, I didn't know that. Then you guys are all in a real pickle.