Would You Support Banning Broken Cards with In-Kind Compensation?

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jtwood
jtwood Posts: 1,285 Chairperson of the Boards
in MtGPQ General Discussion
I propose the following statements as facts that are barely disputable, if at all:
  1. This game contains too many bugged cards, and
  2. Oktagon lacks the resources to effectively fix or manage bugged cards
Assuming no one has major issues with my statements above, I would like to throw out a topic for discussion:

Would you support Oktagon culling (banning) all bugged cards from this game if they gave compensation in kind?

From my perspective, I see this as potentially being one of the easiest solutions to persistent issues that ruin our game play experience.

What does in-kind compensation look like? Probably orbs, but maybe guaranteed rare/mythic/masterpiece packs, too.

Would You Support Banning Broken Cards with In-Kind Compensation? 37 votes

Keep broken cards. They should be fixed to work as designed/intended.
86%
madwrenDragonSorcererJames13Avahadmrixl2520StormcrowTomBMachineFindingHeart8Tilwin90OpperstamperertaiiElfNeedsFoodGormhausMburn7KinesiaRasalghulWolfteethAeroplaneNarcoticsagent 32 votes
Cull broken cards. In-kind compensation should be orbs only.
0%
Cull broken cards. In-kind compensation should be guaranteed packs only.
0%
Cull broken cards. In-kind compensation should be orbs for commons/uncommons, but guaranteed packs for rares, mythics, and masterpieces.
0%
Cull broken cards. Compensation can be some mix of the above and/or something else altogether.
10%
GrizzoMtGPQjtwoodTheophilusJohnnyXII 4 votes
You have this all wrong. Here's why...
2%
Helgaroth 1 vote
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Comments

  • Stormcrow
    Stormcrow Posts: 462 Mover and Shaker
    Options
    Keep broken cards. They should be fixed to work as designed/intended.
    Way, way, way too much of the card pool is bugged in some respect right now. A lot of the bugs aren't really card specific, they're essentially game engine bugs. Too much gem conversion soft-locking the game under certain circumstances, for example; what are you gonna do, ban every gem converter? Moreover, another whole segment of bugs comes from the interactions of two cards; if both cards work fine except when the other one is present, which one would you ban?

    I could see banning specific broken cards whose bug is unique to that card (or a very small handful of 2-3 cards) if, and only if, Oktagon at least attempts to fix it and realizes that they literally cannot, for whatever reasons due to the state of this game's spaghetti code. If a card's literally unfixable, removing it might be an option, though still an inferior option IMO to reworking the function of the card so it is usable.

    But really, there is just something wrong with the way Oktagon does QA and bug-testing. There are so many cards in the game that are broken right now, that used to work fine in previous updates. It seems like every new patch breaks something that used to work. I don't know if it's some kind of absolute bonkers failure of version control, or just the fact that this game's spaghetti code is such an ad-hoc mess that tinkering with any one thing will break six others, but whatever it is, it's clearly a systemic problem and I hold out zero hope for this game getting less buggy as long as that systemic issue persists.

    Just banning all the broken cards though, that feels like looking at a patient whose brain tumor is causing their arm muscles to spasm uncontrollably, and deciding the solution is to amputate the arm.
  • Opperstamper
    Opperstamper Posts: 142 Tile Toppler
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    Keep broken cards. They should be fixed to work as designed/intended.
    Just make them invisible in the card collection. Functionality is already there (probably not on purpose tho): https://forums.d3go.com/discussion/80972/non-existent-te-cards#latest. 

    Removing and replacing with orbs/packs/cards would only mean we need to pull them again, which doesn't feel very likely for all cards (full art Vanguard Teferi for example). Make them visible again after repairs. 
  • Julie71
    Julie71 MTGPQ Mod Posts: 707 Critical Contributor
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    Keep broken cards. They should be fixed to work as designed/intended.
    I really think that what needs to happen is have a dedicated team. (Testers) that problem solve possible bugged cards. It does suck having so may cards that causes losses. While most players report, discontinue using bugged cards your still going to have those few that think it funny to stack decks with cards knowing that it will cause issues with others games. 
  • Mburn7
    Mburn7 Posts: 3,427 Chairperson of the Boards
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    Keep broken cards. They should be fixed to work as designed/intended.
    Pretty much what @Stormcrow just said (minus the brain tumor analogy, I'm not smart enough to come up with that one)

    I agree that there should be some mechanic in game for banning cards, but it should be used the same way MTG does it for overpowered cards that can't be reasonably fixed and come with some sort of compensation.

    Bugged cards, however, absolutely should be fixed.  If Oktagon can't do that then either they need to figure out a way to do it (maybe with some helpful players beta testing?) or D3 needs to find a new dev team that can (again, certainly not ideal at all).

    I also would not be against a temporary suspension of new sets until the bugs in the existing ones are worked out, but I doubt that others will agree with me on that.
  • Helgaroth
    Helgaroth Posts: 43 Just Dropped In
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    You have this all wrong. Here's why...
    Lol something I didn’t write was tinykitty!!!😳
  • mrixl2520
    mrixl2520 Posts: 240 Tile Toppler
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    Keep broken cards. They should be fixed to work as designed/intended.
    Maybe it has been said before, but I get the feeling that we players are the testers. Which I guess is understandable, we're going to play with the cards anyway, so why bother paying a team to do it? However, it is very frustrating that so many cards, events, PWs, and purchasables make it out the door without even seeing if they work as intended.

    VIP compensation & Bundles should be the highest priority. Refunds should be issued if requested. Bugs that prevent event completion or highest possible scores I think deserve some compensation for the folks that play competitively in the form of in-game currency. Bugged PWs & cards should be next prioritized from newest to oldest, and cards in the order of exclusives > masterpiece > mythic > rare > uncommon > common.
  • ElfNeedsFood
    ElfNeedsFood Posts: 944 Critical Contributor
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    Keep broken cards. They should be fixed to work as designed/intended.
    Except for Depala.  Just take her now.  No compensation necessary.
  • Machine
    Machine Posts: 789 Critical Contributor
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    Keep broken cards. They should be fixed to work as designed/intended.
    ElfNeedsFood said:
    Except for Depala.  Just take her now.  No compensation necessary.
    ROFL, you can have her AFTER I have mastered her. Which might take a few years or so :-)
  • jtwood
    jtwood Posts: 1,285 Chairperson of the Boards
    edited January 2020
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    Cull broken cards. Compensation can be some mix of the above and/or something else altogether.
    Every now and then, there's a moment when I realize that I just view the world differently than everyone else. And this is definitely one of those. :smiley:
    When I think of cards like Tragic Arrogance, for example... It's a potentially good card. Could be usable forever since it won't rotate. But even though I see so many "they should be fixed" comments here, I strongly believe cards like Tragic Arrogance will absolutely never get fixed. There is no financial incentive for anyone to fix that card, and that trumps the "should" feelings I see here almost every time.
    So we sit here, collections full of these cards that are unusable or break over and over again, and I ask myself why we would even want to keep those cards? Why not just remove them from the game, crack a new card at the same rarity, and move on? There are so many cards that go unused just because their power level is below playability. What does it matter if we remove more cards that are not playable and cause massive problems, especially if they will likely never be fixed?
    Obviously no one else wants this, so I won't belabor the point. Just wanted to elaborate on how the idea sounded when it bounced around in my head yesterday.

  • madwren
    madwren Posts: 2,227 Chairperson of the Boards
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    Keep broken cards. They should be fixed to work as designed/intended.
    It's built into Magic's design strategy to have varying levels of quality within rarity tiers. Basically, card selection is a skill tester.  Not every card is usable, nor should it be. 

    Unfortunately, in MTGPQ, the variance is a lot higher than it should be, due to our inflated life totals. I mean, an 2/2 for 3 mana in MTGPQ is at least somewhat useful. It's still gonna take out 10% of the opponent's hp if it hits. 

    In MTGPQ, though, they scale mana cost but not power/toughness. So you wind up with a 2/2 creature for 10 mana that removes 1.6% of a 120-hp planeswalker's health if it gets through. You get large swaths of cards that are simply too ineffectual to warrant inclusion in a 10-card deck. 


  • FindingHeart8
    FindingHeart8 Posts: 2,730 Chairperson of the Boards
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    Keep broken cards. They should be fixed to work as designed/intended.
    If they don't fix the underlying issues with these broken cards and their designs, this problem will continue to arise as they make new cards and we will revisit this problem again in the future.
  • Quantius
    Quantius Posts: 228 Tile Toppler
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    I get where you're coming from here, since these things keep breaking (or never get fixed) why not just toss em. The issue with that is that is gives the devs a "get out of jail free" card. It's a bandaid that absolves them of improving things and just gives them a tool for future broken cards and no incentive to not create broken cards.

    What I think would be a great way to incentivize them to fix things is to give players 100 of each currency when a bugged card crashes their game. "But players would purposely play with bugged cards for the currency!" Yeah. That's the point. The only way they will ever hustle and fix them is if it impacts the bottom line. It's always about money. Giving players free currency means less money for them via purchases. You want things fixed, then the game needs to bleed a bit.

    Obviously, I know this is extreme and will never happen, but otherwise there's little reason (beyond maybe losing players) to get things fixed. That's not to say they don't roll out fixes every now and then, but it's clear that it's a significant issue for most of us.
  • Pantagruel
    Pantagruel Posts: 79 Match Maker
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    madwren said:
    It's built into Magic's design strategy to have varying levels of quality within rarity tiers. Basically, card selection is a skill tester.  Not every card is usable, nor should it be. 

    Unfortunately, in MTGPQ, the variance is a lot higher than it should be.

    And as a result, card selection is not a skill tester.
  • jtwood
    jtwood Posts: 1,285 Chairperson of the Boards
    Options
    Cull broken cards. Compensation can be some mix of the above and/or something else altogether.
    Quantius said:
    The issue with that is that is gives the devs a "get out of jail free" card. It's a bandaid that absolves them of improving things and just gives them a tool for future broken cards and no incentive to not create broken cards.
    In all seriousness... Is that really a bad outcome?
  • Quantius
    Quantius Posts: 228 Tile Toppler
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    jtwood said:
    Quantius said:
    The issue with that is that is gives the devs a "get out of jail free" card. It's a bandaid that absolves them of improving things and just gives them a tool for future broken cards and no incentive to not create broken cards.
    In all seriousness... Is that really a bad outcome?

    Potentially. If that became their default option when something broke we could just keep losing stuff.
  • jtwood
    jtwood Posts: 1,285 Chairperson of the Boards
    edited January 2020
    Options
    Cull broken cards. Compensation can be some mix of the above and/or something else altogether.
    Quantius said:
    jtwood said:
    Quantius said:
    The issue with that is that is gives the devs a "get out of jail free" card. It's a bandaid that absolves them of improving things and just gives them a tool for future broken cards and no incentive to not create broken cards.
    In all seriousness... Is that really a bad outcome?

    Potentially. If that became their default option when something broke we could just keep losing stuff.
    But their default option is already to publish broken stuff. And that hasn't seemed to be be on a track to change despite our voluminous complaints for a very long time. So it's not really a shift from the status quo if they keep putting out broken stuff. The only change in the scenario above is that we actually get some form of remediation compared to now, where we get nothing but broken cards to sit around in our collection, to pull as dupes from packs, and to basically waste our time.
  • Theophilus
    Theophilus Posts: 123 Tile Toppler
    Options
    Cull broken cards. Compensation can be some mix of the above and/or something else altogether.
    I think the problem with the poll is that the first option is clearly what SHOULD be done, but at this point it seems fairly certain that it isn's going to happen. In light of that, I wouldn't mind some sort of cull with some sort of equivalent non-dupe/orb compensation. 

    Something else to consider- some bugged cards still have some value and can be played without ruining the game. Example- occasionally Mirror March eventually destroys itself. When it was first released, upon destroying itself you would lose all reinforcements and haste. But, because it didn't happen every time, it was still a useful card. Also, it got fixed. There would need to be some sort of level of brokenness as well as a length of time that it remains unfixed before considering culling the card from the game.

    Just my two cents.
  • Quantius
    Quantius Posts: 228 Tile Toppler
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    jtwood said:
    Quantius said:
    jtwood said:
    Quantius said:
    The issue with that is that is gives the devs a "get out of jail free" card. It's a bandaid that absolves them of improving things and just gives them a tool for future broken cards and no incentive to not create broken cards.
    In all seriousness... Is that really a bad outcome?

    Potentially. If that became their default option when something broke we could just keep losing stuff.
    But their default option is already to publish broken stuff. And that hasn't seemed to be be on a track to change despite our voluminous complaints for a very long time. So it's not really a shift from the status quo if they keep putting out broken stuff. The only change in the scenario above is that we actually get some form of remediation compared to now, where we get nothing but broken cards to sit around in our collection, to pull as dupes from packs, and to basically waste our time.
    I hear that, but recently Animist's Awakening was bugged, but then they fixed it. It's a card I use a lot, and I'm really glad it got fixed rather than logging in to find it gone and in it's place a couple of orbs. If there's no reason to fix a card, then I could only imagine how many good or fun cards would get melted away. Jodah was a lot of fun, but then he got bugged and didn't work. He got fixed.

    Basically, not all bugged cards stay bugged. So what would be the time frame for something to get fixed v trashed? And what would their reason be to not just say "we tried, but we're past the "fix" time frame so here are your orbs."?


  • jtwood
    jtwood Posts: 1,285 Chairperson of the Boards
    Options
    Cull broken cards. Compensation can be some mix of the above and/or something else altogether.
    Theophilus said:
    I think the problem with the poll is that the first option is clearly what SHOULD be done, but at this point it seems fairly certain that it isn's going to happen. In light of that, I wouldn't mind some sort of cull with some sort of equivalent non-dupe/orb compensation.
    I think the responses have made it apparent that players of this game still want the "should" over the pragmatic "welp" option, and I'm glad to have learned that. I, honestly, didn't expect to many principled takes on this topic, so it was an interesting surprise from my perspective.

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