How to get Bonus Heroes back.

whitecat31

I could run a poll to ask if people want Bonus heroes back, but nobody really needs to see a poll with obvious results.
Let's just assume the poll was done and 90+% of the accounts said yes. 

So how do we get it back. Well it is complicated.  The Shard system gives us rewards from tokens we open with a 4% return rate. This is a colorless cover option, which the dev team thinks is somehow more valuable than the Bonus hero token return of 5%.
For the beginning player, who does not understand patience, the colorless shard system could be more beneficial. 
But is it really? We now have saved covers now. If a player is patient the colorless cover given by shards is not as valuable as people think. 
So let's balance things out and declare the 4% return rate as unfair for the majority of the players.
For the shard system to remain, and to get bonus heroes back one would assume something has to give, because I don't expect any extra benevolence from the game developers.
So we have some options.

A. The Game developers surprises us and become extra benevolent and return Bonus Heroes at the former 5% rate with no changes to anything else.  Pauses for 15 seconds.

 OK, Now that we are all done laughing, let us look at other viable options, that might actually have a chance.

B. Return Bonus Heroes at the former 5% rate for VIP users.  A lot of players canceled VIP recently, and this would get many to sign back on. Don't hate me for suggesting this.

C. Let's return Bonus heroes at about a 4% return rate, and drastically lower the shards given from token openings to 1%. 
This means dividing the current shards delivered from Token openings by 75% and rounding up. 

D. Allow players to opt out of the Tokens for Shard system and just have Bonus Heroes at the old 5% rate.  This one is my favorite viable option. 

I would make a poll, but everybody including me would choose A.

fmftint

Shards are fine in that they normalized BHs, what they need to do now is normalize 5 star pull rates

shap328

The shard system is still not 100% rolled out - think this is premature until we see the full impact of their plans. Right now, yes I'm a little underwhelmed, but I also know they've said that the shard rollout isn't complete yet.

If anyone here is familiar to agile project management, this is what the devs work with to get these updates to us.

Vhailorx

It would have taken mass action/outrage from the playerbase whitecat.  think about disparity in player response between the shards announcememt and the champ rewards overhaul.  The latter got major corrective action from demi/d3 within days.  The former has received no commentary at all once the system rolled out. And at this point, I think the window for any such response on shards v. bonus heroes has basically closed.

Whenever a sizeable portion of the playerbase views any given change as acceptable, demi/d3 will just let it stand until it is normalized.  The playerbase will eat itself arguing over how good/ba the change is, and demi/d3 will get to see if their intended changes have the desired effect.  This worked for shield cooldowns, vaulting, etc.  No reason to expect anything different now.

huktonfonix

Please stop.  This is such nitpicking.  Shards are fine.  It's a very minor trade off of fewer overall covers for less RNG.  We have complained about RNG for years, and the minute we get a decent fix for it you start demanding more free stuff.

shinnaruto

If we are talking about this, then I think the VIP for bonus heroes would have a huge buy rate.
Unfortunately, I think they are trying to stretch the game out some by slowing it down a bit.

I am fine with what I have seen so far. I am eager to see what the rest of the rollout for shards will look like when added to rewards for PVE and PVP

Vhailorx

huktonfonix said:

Please stop.  This is such nitpicking.  Shards are fine.  It's a very minor trade off of fewer overall covers for less RNG.  We have complained about RNG for years, and the minute we get a decent fix for it you start demanding more free stuff.

You please stop with the moralizing.  Using language like "free stuff" is just a cheap attempt to forestall any argument by delegitimizing the opposing view point.

This this a freemium game based on limitless digital goods being sold for real world money.  EVERYTHING in and around MPQ has a monetary value, from retroactive rewards, to BH, to players' attention, to community activity on the forums/reddit.  It's not always as easy to calculate as an in-game purchase, but everything has some value.  When demi/d3 give something away, it's because they think they can get it back somewhere else, or worry that the cost of NOT giving away will be painful.

If you like shards more than BH, fine.  If you like BH more than shards, fine.  If you think that many dozens of new characters to build have been added to the game since BH rolled out, so BH + shards is a good solution to dilution, fine. we can argue about all of that forever.

But let's please stop pretending that one side is morally correct and the other side is just whiny, entitled babies/millennials/whatever.  That's not a useful frame for any discussion (nor is it an accurate model of the world, fwiw).

whitecat31

Let me clarify, something I think I would not have to clarify. 
I have accepted the shard system as the new feeder system.  
The bonus heroes were replaced by the shards from the Tokens. So I accept this fix to the RNG for covers generated with technically giving us colorless covers, well 5/6 anyway for the five stars assuming you spend the 2 years fully champing that 4 star. 


The shards from the tokens is still a reduction from 5% to 4% on returns. 
In theory if you open up 140 legendary tokens you would get 20 five stars and a single five star bonus hero.
You would also get 6 four star rewards. 
Now in theory if you open up 140 legendary tokens you get 420 five star shards  and 1800 four star shard rewards (4.5 four stars).
You have to open up 160 legendary tokens to get that 2400 four star shards to get those 6 four stars. 
You have to open up 167 legendary tokens to get 501 five star shards for that extra 5 star. 
Seriously, why do they have to have a single left over shard.

In a world where you have 4 stars that are very viable in certain events these 4 stars have value. 
People want their Grocket, Bishop, Jug, Sabertooth, Hammer Cap. 
 

Vhailorx

You get 501 5* shards for 167 LTs because demi/d3 thought giving out 4x shards per LT was too much.  They broke down covers into .02 increments, and STILL didn't make a truly lateral move in terms of cover acquisition rates.

Godzillafan67

shap328 said:

The shard system is still not 100% rolled out - think this is premature until we see the full impact of their plans. Right now, yes I'm a little underwhelmed, but I also know they've said that the shard rollout isn't complete yet.

If anyone here is familiar to agile project management, this is what the devs work with to get these updates to us.

Besides being agile, I believe that they are also viewing how shard monetization is working out.

Vhailorx said:

It would have taken mass action/outrage from the playerbase whitecat.  think about disparity in player response between the shards announcememt and the champ rewards overhaul.  The latter got major corrective action from demi/d3 within days.  The former has received no commentary at all once the system rolled out. And at this point, I think the window for any such response on shards v. bonus heroes has basically closed.

Whenever a sizeable portion of the playerbase views any given change as acceptable, demi/d3 will just let it stand until it is normalized.  The playerbase will eat itself arguing over how good/ba the change is, and demi/d3 will get to see if their intended changes have the desired effect.  This worked for shield cooldowns, vaulting, etc.  No reason to expect anything different now.

There was quite a bit of commentary prior to shards arriving, but yes, very little discussion since then. Part of that is likely due to folks waiting for shards to be 100% implemented (though I doubt they'll ever say "Yep, we're done"). I believe that I'm one of those poor, unfortunate souls upon which the RNG sun does not shine, so I like the steady payout shards has to offer. Is it the solution to dilution? It could be, but it's not in its current state.

So, to the original point, I wouldn't mind a Bonus Shards! feature added where one occasionally gets extra shards, up to 1.5 covers worth. Just don't let that "feature" reduce my steady dribble.

ZootSax

Re: https://forums.d3go.com/discussion/comment/906265/#Comment_906265

While it has gotten better in recent days, I kind of wish this post could have been added to every thread after the original shard rollout.  Well said, @Vhailorx

shinnaruto

I think another missing piece is how the Mighty Tokens are going to play in this. The Mighty Tokens are being added with the shards. This will allow help with pulling in 4*s.

grumbLEGO

 We now have saved covers now. If a player is patient the colorless cover given by shards is not as valuable as people think. 

Couldn’t that logic be applied to waiting for shards?

jamesh

Vhailorx said:

You get 501 5* shards for 167 LTs because demi/d3 thought giving out 4x shards per LT was too much.  They broke down covers into .02 increments, and STILL didn't make a truly lateral move in terms of cover acquisition rates.

Remember that making each 5* cover worth 500 shards is also a totally arbitrary number, and had no precedent requiring them to fix it at that value.

So there would have been many options between 3/500ths and 4/500ths of a cover to give out with a legendary token.

Vhailorx

jamesh said:

Vhailorx said:

You get 501 5* shards for 167 LTs because demi/d3 thought giving out 4x shards per LT was too much.  They broke down covers into .02 increments, and STILL didn't make a truly lateral move in terms of cover acquisition rates.

Remember that making each 5* cover worth 500 shards is also a totally arbitrary number, and had no precedent requiring them to fix it at that value.

So there would have been many options between 3/500ths and 4/500ths of a cover to give out with a legendary token.

Yeah, that's my point.  The subdivision of covers was totally at the discretion of demi/d3.  And they still managed to settle on something that resulted in a slight tune-down of players' cover rate.

HoundofShadow

They've already kinda fixed that number when they made 5* purchaseable in 5* release Heroic 10x or 40x. The odds was going for 1:250 or 1:166 back in August or during the Prof $' saga. That was probably a subtle prelude to the future.

If they kept the threshold at 500 shards and increased the shards gained to 4, it will require 125 pulls. Back in BH days, 5* BH odds were 1/7 * 1/20 = 140 pulls. Realistically speaking, they are not going to reduce the number of pulls needed to get 5* BH and give you a colourless cover to go with. The 500 shards figure might be arbitrary but the odds they have decided are not. Even if they give 4 shards per LT pull, we will be looking at 664 shards.

I don't think BH is coming back because they have made major changes to the game and expecting them to add BH on top of shards is a fairytale. The next best thing is BH shards. 

If BH shards were introduced, we are probably looking at up to extra 9 bonus shards.  Recently, BRB HP store gave 9 5* shards for 40X. 

Wonko33

I am not firmly in the 5* meta but have a toe in- since shards and colorless covers  I have champed 3  that were 5-5-2  (2 before the retro rewards)  that's way better than having them at 12 covers with a few saved ones- I get to use them now, enjoy them and be more competitive. I am sold on the shards - loosing some pittance ISO, some LTs (that most the time gives me a 4* I don't even have a use for) and some CP is a good trade for me.

Personally I don't play for 6 months from now, I play for right now because I might not even be playing in 6 months.

NotBAMF

I miss Bonus Heroes, but as long as they stop their asinine "policy" of requiring recently released characters for Shield Training, I can live with Shards instead.

If they killed off BH and STILL keep doing recent releases in ST, then I'll be cheesed.

Vhailorx

NotBAMF said:

I miss Bonus Heroes, but as long as they stop their asinine "policy" of requiring recently released characters for Shield Training, I can live with Shards instead.

If they killed off BH and STILL keep doing recent releases in ST, then I'll be cheesed.

They will definitely do this.  New characters ok shield training is an intentional design, and also one that has been accepted by the playerbase.  There is little reason to expect it to change (unless it is used as the attractive distracted component of a much larger systems change that would also take something else from the players).

Jacklag

I wouldn't go assuming as much players prefered the old system. I for one see that the old system had advantages, but the new one has too. The fact that you now have a way of tracking your progress towards your favorite character cover is excelent, and the fact that you can choose what power to get with it too.

The only gripe I have with shards right now is that I am kinda obsessive with neatness and if I finish pulling tokens to gain the shards I need with 303/300 shards for a 3*, for example, those 3 useless shards will drive me crazy. 

If there was a way of trading excess Shards from one character to another, the system would be perfect.

Vhailorx

Jacklag said:

I wouldn't go assuming as much players prefered the old system. I for one see that the old system had advantages, but the new one has too. The fact that you now have a way of tracking your progress towards your favorite character cover is excelent, and the fact that you can choose what power to get with it too.

The only gripe I have with shards right now is that I am kinda obsessive with neatness and if I finish pulling tokens to gain the shards I need with 303/300 shards for a 3*, for example, those 3 useless shards will drive me crazy. 

If there was a way of trading excess Shards from one character to another, the system would be perfect.

But you act like that frustration is some mistake by demi.  That's the feature for them.  Now every token opened is an opportunity cost because those shard are stuck with that character forever.  BH could be swapped whenever necessary as per the dictates of all the other RNG elements of the game.  Targeted heroes cannot.