Expectations vs reality

bluewolf

Dilution is not a new issue, obviously. I appreciate it’s also not easy but it’s a bit disingenuous to act like there hasn’t been a very long time to address it. 

Saying our various ideas aren’t good or won’t work is fair. But the devs job is therefore to find a solution that does indeed work for them. 

I think they were leveraging it for a long time to sell bundles etc, and finally may do something since it has IMO reached critical mass with the sub 1% draw rate. 

jp1

Bowgentle said:

DAZ0273 said:

I think it's also important to note that the devs are not working on only MPQ, but they are also working on other projects.

But...this isn't how consumer expectation works. If I go to the supermarket and I want to buy some bananas only to be told "Sir! We have stopped work on the fruit section right now but boy have we made progress on the cheese department! Cheese for you today? They are both yellow after all!"

For all I know MTGPQ is a dumpster fire filled with fireworks next to an oil refiniery right now and that is why Brigby has been packed off in that direction with a water hose. So what? Have you ever notice the Devs pop up on the forums and say "Hey we understand some of you guys had something you refer to as "real life stuff" happen which interfered with you playing our game! So as a way of understanding, we'll make things easier for you!". No because they don't, in the nicest possible way give a single Snikt about that, they just want us to play the game, for long periods and preferably spend whilst doing so. So we have absolutely no obligation to consider it "important to note" or care in any other way whatsoever.

Perfectionists are difficult to please.

Quite probably true but the relevance to this topic seems a bit vague. Lets take an example:

One complaint was that it was advertised on the App store that there would be "Daily Updates". Now obviously that didn't happen in any way or form and ended up as the butt of several jokes but there is a difference between expectation and what is reasonable leaway to give. If the situation is that you can't spare 10 minutes to cut and paste something onto your official forum from a calendar you already have access to then the perception is going to be "This is not very important to communicate to our customers". Now put that in context that this is supposed to your *Premium Event* which you have announced you have devoted all your lead up time to and it seems a strange thing to just casualy toss away as way down on the schedule and shrug your shoulders. "Anniversary? Eh, we'll try to care next year."

Remember when they started Battle at the Basilica early to avoid scheduling conflicts with July 4th? It was inconvenient (and irrelevant to non US citizens) but it made sense and was evidence of smart advance planning. If NYC Con is the reason they are stretched, why not have used the same level of advance planning on Anniversary? Thinking that is a logical and sound way of proceeding is not seeking "perfection", it is looking at what worked before and using that to inform your future planning.

Maybe there has been a real life disaster (like a dumpster filled with fireworks on fire next to the D3GO Offices!) but a lot of this feels like it could have been avoided rather than bumped down the list to "Get to at some point, hopefully".

I think this goes back to my main point: players only want to hear what they want to hear. They will reject or ignore whatever they don't want to hear.

This is a massive oversimplication and would be quite easy to turn around on the Devs. The Devs only want to hear praise. The Devs don't want to address the problems with their product. The Devs have a history of leaving the game broken. It isn't fair to label the Devs with this accusation just as the same as it isn't true at all as a sterotyped over simplification of what players "want to hear".

Contrary to popular beliefs where dilution solution can be implemented 
immediately or in a short notice, it would take 2 weeks of rewriting the
 data. On top of that they have to through cost analyses and 
prioritising of tasks. The devs also shared that they have limited dev 
time per day so they aren't coding 8-10 hours per day.

These are problems for the Devs. If my client wants me to produce something for him, he doesn't want to hear about the problems I have in manufacturing, he just wants to know whether or not he will get it or not. Sure things aren't as direct a link as that here and obviously the Devs make these types of decision with regard to their own internal mechanics but to think that such concerns are at all persuasive at the consumer end is simply a false start from the beginning. It would be nice to think players will be considerate of these things but because the Devs would require 2 weeks to implement them isn't much of an overriding argument from the consumer side - "2 weeks you say? OK, I can wait 2 weeks! Cost analysis? Fine. Seeya in 2 weeks!"

I appreciate the effort but do yourself a favour and put certain members of this community on your ignore list and move on with your life.
Some people only have a vague notion about conversations and human beings as a whole, as they have shown time and time again.
Not worth it.

I don’t know. I think it’s important to have opposing points of view in the discussion. I agree that it is somewhat predictable at this point, but he seems harmless.

Edit: Yeah, nevermind. I get it now.

Warbringa

This is feedback for the devs/publisher, but relevant to the above conversations.  I was going to buy my once per year Stark salary during the anniversary, as I usually do, but I was pretty unimpressed with this year's anniversary and especially by such limited communication.  I don't need the Stark salary by any means, so I will probably wait.   Maybe if I am more excited by the game around Xmas and there is another HP sale I may consider buying but my excitement about the game has actually diminished through this anniversary, whereas in past anniversary events I usually became more excited about the game.   

jp1

I really need to strengthen my resolve to not spend money when they are doing things that I dislike. I’m definitely sending mixed signals.

I have cut back, but now I’m even tempted by the Chavez bundle, as I complain about where they are headed, as my Chavez is plenty high enough level already, I’m still like, oh 24.99 - let me check the champ rewards!

Im going to try to be a frugal fella this time. Although, since it’s Chavez I have a feeling it will sell well enough without my purchase.

crackninja

Polares said:

The problem with your post and with how things are in the game right now, is that most of the things we are asking for are things that would improve the game A LOT, and that they are actually needed.

Like being able to cover at some points all old 5s? Obviously great. Feeders are nothing crazy, they give six covers in total after you completely max a 4!!! I barely have two 4s completely maxed out, so it is nothing crazy AT ALL. And being able to cover old 5s? This should be a MUST. All games provide you with tools to max old chars, I can't understand why this game is so fricking stingy.

Regarding, Shield, we are not asking about completing it, just the option for dedicated p[layers to get the bonus 4 cover, we all understand completing it is just for whales. But ok, this has been like this since the beginning so nothing new, and I don't expect them to change it. Again, Devs being crazy stingy, this is just one extra cover!

Releasing broken chars. Every single game does nerfs. They are needed sometimes, I don't like them, I think they are a last resort. They should not be abused, but when someone like Bishop is released, there needs to be a nerf. CapWorthy needs a nerf already, which makes things worse, as it is obvious they have learned nothing from Bishop debacle.

Those are pretty obvious fixes the games needs. Being the other big big one dilution (and also the boring state of affairs of PvP in 5 land). But gameDevs looks like they don't care, for whatever reason. I agree with you, that if you  are not happy playing this game you should leave it, but I have to say that I am pretty annoyed seeing Devs ignoring most of these problems just because (Dilution is a harder problem to fix, but the other ones are not).

I totally agree, my point is merely that I think it is a major mistake on the player's part to think that any of them will actually be resolved.
In a lot of ways we may care more about the game than the devs, after all it's a job to them, and a passion for us.  It pains me to see many of the decisions that have been made, and without knowing fully the timelines for solutions that appear "easy", or what the actual tradeoffs and choices are, it feels like their resource management is not being used in the ways I would like to see it.
It's not about us setting expectations low so as not to be disappointed, it's about not deluding ourselves.  Easy example:  the servers go out and our placement is wrecked.  What you think is fair is irrelevant in terms of what you should expect, because it's almost always some iso, a token, and an apology.  That's what you should be expecting, and if you think that's terrible customer service, etc, you're not wrong, but you are only torturing yourself if you really think they'll hand out oodles of LT's because that happened one time two years ago.

A_Wise_Man

jp1 said:

10 pack and 40 pack here. I did get two BH Torch, but nothing organically with those “increased odds” 15x what exactly?

Anyway, I managed to complete shield training. So, I guess that’s good. Spidey looks like another really great 4* who I will use when boosted for sure.

So...chances of a 4 star are 7 percent from those stores.  Divided by 85 4 stars and its 0.08%ish Times 15. And its 1.23%ish.  About 1 in 81 for a torch.   Next time buy 2 or 3 or 4 40 packs and you'll probably get whoever you're looking for.

bluewolf

A_Wise_Man said:

jp1 said:

10 pack and 40 pack here. I did get two BH Torch, but nothing organically with those “increased odds” 15x what exactly?

Anyway, I managed to complete shield training. So, I guess that’s good. Spidey looks like another really great 4* who I will use when boosted for sure.

So...chances of a 4 star are 7 percent from those stores.  Divided by 85 4 stars and its 0.08%ish Times 15. And its 1.23%ish.  About 1 in 81 for a torch.   Next time buy 2 or 3 or 4 40 packs and you'll probably get whoever you're looking for.

Paying to win via RNG is a very dubious strategy in the Era of Dilution and I would not recommend it to anyone who doesn’t have money pouring out their ears and literally doesn’t care about wasting thousands of dollars on digital comic book covers. 

helix72

jp1 said:

10 pack and 40 pack here. I did get two BH Torch, but nothing organically with those “increased odds” 15x what exactly?

Anyway, I managed to complete shield training. So, I guess that’s good. Spidey looks like another really great 4* who I will use when boosted for sure.

Random vaults even with increased odds are an expensive proposition, and you need to know some statistics to know how many covers you should really expect and what you're paying for each cover. But the fact is you didn't get unlucky overall, you would actually expect only 0.86 covers (assuming Torchy is your BH), and you got 2.

All the fun math is below. I did this fast so if anyone spots any mistakes, please just let me know and I'll correct it. Also I'm assuming all HP comes from real $ which we know isn't the case because you can earn it in-game, just keep that in mind and adjust the calculation to account for your current balance of "earned" HP vs "purchased" HP:

Let's say you're chasing Torchy. The 40 pack in the "Special" vault says "approximately" 1/13 chance to get a 4*, but let's assume it's exactly 1/13 just for this exercise. That's 7.69%.

There are 86 4*s in the pack, which would normally mean Torchy is 1/86 = 1.16% chance to draw given you draw a 4*. But Torchy is at 15x odds, so we put it at 1.16% x 15 = 17.44% (rounding).

Put all this together with bonus hero chances and you should expect to average one Torchy every 57.9 pulls. If we break it out, you should expect one "natural" Torchy every 74.5 pulls. You should expect one "bonus" Torchy every 260.0 pulls.

You know what the odds are of pulling zero Torchys "naturally" in 50 pulls from that vault? 50.9%. So you lost a coin flip there.

You know what the odds are of pulling at least two 4* bonus heros in 50 pulls from that vault? 1.6%. So you got REALLY lucky there.

Now let's put that in real world $ terms. Even if I use the current discounted price of a Stark, and only the discounted price of the 40 pack vault:

One 40 pack should net you 0.69 Torchy covers.
One 40 pack costs 11,800 HP.
So that's 11,800 HP / 0.69 Torchy covers = 17,089 HP per 1.00 Torchy covers.
HPs cost $99.99 for 26,000, or 260 HP per $.
( 17,089 HP / 1 cover ) x ( $1 / 260 HP ) = $65.72 per cover

That's why whaling is so expensive. Now, if it's worth it to you to pay nearly $66 per cover, go right ahead. Just know what it is that you're paying.

HoundofShadow

If you don't work in a corporate office environment or deal with corporate customers, I think it's not easy to see things from that point of view. 

Because they have different projects to handle, it means their resources are tied up, which means other projects get affected as well. It's not difficult to understand.

Look, you want communication from the devs. The devs are open enough to share with you the obstacles they are facing in implementing those solutions or the reason(s) why they are not implementing certain things. All they get is it's not the players' problem, which is true. I'm not expecting the players to solve those obstacles. What I'm saying is, because of these obstacles, don't expect things to get solved as quickly as you expect.

Players need to see things from a broader point of view. In big organisation, the job of the finance department is to run the numbers to ensure the ROIs on pursuing the projects or tasks are acceptable. If the finance department allows the players to run the show, that is to say, they allow the devs implement to whatever solution that the players want without running the numbers, they are not doing their job. Because they are doing the job, that's why you are not getting exactly what you want. 

The fact is, the devs has kpi to be met and they have limited amount of resources to perform certain tasks. This is a limit set by the upper management. If the devs want more resources, the upper management is going to ask, "If I give you what you want, what do I get in return?"

Some of you have been pursuing the same solutions you want implemented for years, and yet, you are not getting what you want. Have you ever stop to think why that is so, besides coming up with the typical "the game is a moneygrab" reason?

If you still insist on forcing the devs to implement exactly what you want, and refuse to acknowledge or choose to ignore the fact that this is how big corporation runs, then please apply with Demiurge as the game director of MPQ project, or even better, the VP of Demiurge. When you are in that position, it will be easier to ram through your solution and override the finance department, hopefully.

Note: please read the last paragraph ten times slowly before you rebuke.

jp1

I think it is a pretty big leap to assume that nobody on these forums works in a corporate environment. 

I understand that kind of environment intimately. Based on your rundown above, I’d wager my lunch money I understand it better than you do. However, I will concede that software development is not my area, there are many things I don’t know about the inner workings of that particular field.

Completely ignoring feedback of your customer base is a poor practice. That is all there is to it. I don’t care what way you want to excuse it, the complete lack of interest in engaging with the community on your own official forums is not a good business practice.

Look, their business model is built on being secretive. We will never get transparency because it will hurt their bottom line. That doesn’t mean there can’t be some level of communication that gives us a minimal idea of what direction they are steering the ship. The iceberg lays ahead, are they going to turn or not? 

HoundofShadow

Not implementing feedbacks is not the same as ignoring feedbacks. The devs has already acknowledged the players' feedbacks, run it through with their bean counters, they didn't approve it. It as simple as that.

Imagine this, you are representing your colleagues to push for more budgets for a certain project that they like. You talked to the finance and they rejected your proposition. You told your colleagues about it and these are their responses:

"You are not doing your job."
"You are ignoring what we say."
"It's not our problem, I don't care. Get the budgets approved by all means, immediately."
"Why can't you get the budget approved? It's so simple and easy."

jp1

So, which recent developments lead you to believe that customer feedback is being taken into consideration?

HoundofShadow

1. Changes to PvEs. It's not the major permanent change (untimed PvEs) that some wants, but loaner nodes, clicking through dialogues, less messy PvE nodes placement, more new PvEs, inclusion of more interesting nodes such Kaecilius's (despite it being old but popular) are some of the feedbacks they implemented.

2. Responses or communication with players in this thread:

https://forums.d3go.com/discussion/79775/iceix-and-brigby-updates/p1

It's not the responses the players want to hear, but you can't say they are ignoring feedbacks. They acknowledged some of the solutions and problems,  publicly tell the players that there are restrictions they have to work within. You can't expect them to override their bean counters' advices and go ahead with implementing the players' solutions for the sake of making them happy.

3. Background design thinking on how characters are designed, such as character blogs.

4. More UI change coming up. Yes, it started with the store, but there are more coming.

5. Update of engines to allow certain updates or developments to be made or implemented more easily over time.

bluewolf

@helix72

Now we just need the math on whaling covers for Spidey 2099.....  

helix72

@bluewolf

As soon as he goes in packs, I’ll happily run the numbers. I think most will be shocked at how much whaling costs.

bluewolf

helix72 said:

@bluewolf

As soon as he goes in packs, I’ll happily run the numbers. I think most will be shocked at how much whaling costs.

I realize it might be hard to determine, but another question  is figuring out whether the new release store or vault is the easier way to get covers.