A proposed rework of Bishop:

dkffiv

I originally posted this in the gigantic Nerf Bishop thread but it was quickly buried and skipped over.  Therefore I am creating a new thread allows for discussion on how to maintain his overall power / flavor while allowing counter play.

After playing the Talos crash I came up with the following:

Overclocked (Red):
Old:
(PASSIVE) Bishop absorbs his enemy's attacks, storing them up for an explosive blast.  If Bishop's teammates would take x or more damage, Bishop jumps to the front.  Once Bishop has taken y damage, deal z damage to the enemy.

New:
(PASSIVE) Bishop absorbs his enemy's attacks, storing them up for an explosive blast.  For every blue AP Bishop's team possesses, increase his match damage in all colors by (10 at level 270, 20 at 370, ~40 at 479).  (Roughly 10 +1 for every 10 levels over 270)

The main change is that Bishop no longer jumps to the front or does counter damage but rather blue AP massively increases his match damage which would effectively cause him to tank every color / permanently be in front when used on offense.

Numbers could be tweaked but those seem about right.  With a team of 270s, 8 AP would cause Bishop to tank every color.  270 Bishop plus 370's would need about 16 AP, a team of all 370's would still be about 8 AP.  

If paired with 5*s, Bishop would tank their off colors with about 8-10 blue AP.  Boosted to 479 with a full 30 blue AP he could potentially tank every color even when paired with 550s (+1200 match damage all colors added to his 300-400 damage primary colors, 550s primary damage is 1200/1350/1500 or lower depending on how old they are).

The obvious strategy is to save him for last and ensure that you have a stun or massive nuke ready for him.  If you can't 1 shot him he could cause just as much trouble as he currently does.

ThaRoadWarrior

I think it would be very easy to fix Bishop without destroying his utility. The issue with the design you've proposed is that the AI won't sit on that AP. they'll fire off the stun as soon as they have it, so he won't stay in front on defense. So this change basically makes him a weak offensive play and destroys his defensive utility in total.

His counter damage isn't The Problem, it's his rampant AP gain that lets him stun lock your entire team by opponent turn 2 or 3. There are several knobs you could easily turn on his current moveset that wouldn't fundamentally change how he works, just the magnitude of what he does, ie a balance rather than a rework.

1) Add a health differential condition to the jump in front like Thing or D3adpool have
2) Reduce the number of blue AP earned from just existing on the battlefield to 2
3) Make General Reserves behave as-written and just stop accruing AP at 10 when it switches over to the stun
4) Reduce the turn length on that stun to 1 or 2 turns. 3-4 turns is excessive for the ease with which it happens, and allows for a total party kill stunlock scenario. If it were 2 turns maximum, it would be obnoxious but not impassable. If they want a longer stun they have to trade Kitty or Rocket out for a G4mora or whomever as an opportunity cost

dkffiv

ThaRoadWarrior said:

I think it would be very easy to fix Bishop without destroying his utility. The issue with the design you've proposed is that the AI won't sit on that AP. they'll fire off the stun as soon as they have it, so he won't stay in front on defense. So this change basically makes him a weak offensive play and destroys his defensive utility in total.

His counter damage isn't The Problem, it's his rampant AP gain that lets him stun lock your entire team by opponent turn 2 or 3. There are several knobs you could easily turn on his current moveset that wouldn't fundamentally change how he works, just the magnitude of what he does, ie a balance rather than a rework.

The major consensus of the previous thread was that 4* players think he's balanced and don't want any of the tweaked changes because it will greatly reduce his effectiveness in their scenarios.  These changes would keep him just as effective for what they are doing (a lot of players were concerned about reduced effectiveness in PvE) while removing the problems plaguing the 5* tier.

On offense he will always be in front and gain ridiculous amounts of blue AP to stunlock the enemy team.  On defense players can choose not to target him.  Everyone wins.

ThaRoadWarrior

People only use him because he lets you float on defense, not because he is stellar on offense. If you remove the ability to float on defense, I think he stops getting used - like at all. But I have transitional 5* MMR, so my mileage may vary I'm sure.  

DAZ0273

ThaRoadWarrior said:

People only use him because he lets you float on defense, not because he is stellar on offense. If you remove the ability to float on defense, I think he stops getting used - like at all. But I have transitional 5* MMR, so my mileage may vary I'm sure. 

I use him on offense against Gritty teams.

ThaRoadWarrior

Would any of these changes help, hurt, or otherwise prevent you from playing him as you currently do?

If you switched to Dazzler and got the immediate stun + special removal as a counter to damage, would that be similarly viable for you, or is there something fundamental about how he is currently built that makes him your guy on offense?

Or is it specifically his defensive characteristics after you're done climbing that made him better?

DAZ0273

ThaRoadWarrior said:

Would any of these changes help, hurt, or otherwise prevent you from playing him as you currently do?

If you switched to Dazzler and got the immediate stun + special removal as a counter to damage, would that be similarly viable for you, or is there something fundamental about how he is currently built that makes him your guy on offense?

Or is it specifically his defensive characteristics after you're done climbing that made him better?

I use him to quickly take out Kitty before she can ramp up specials to instadeath levels. Anything else is academic/interchangeable. He is simply the most efficient weapon I have at my disposal to deal with her - Sabretooth is unreliable, 4Thanos is slow, Bishop is efficient (but not even he is 100% guaranteed). I don't use Bishop offensively in any other capacity, so, if he was left in a useable position that enables me to take-on Kitty teams and have a chance of winning I'm easy.

ThaRoadWarrior

What team are you fielding him with, and what is the actual mechanism of kitty being taken out quickly? I'm not trying to catch you out, just understand your team and how you're experiencing Bishop. I am reasonably confident I don't seem him they way you are, so I just want to get a true picture of it.

It does seem to me that swapping to Dazzler/Rocket (1 enemy match here, and all of the opposing strikes are gone and whoever did the damage is 4-turn stunned) or Dazzler/Valkyrie (valkyrie creates strikes and the stun is shorter/less enemy strikes removed on the first one, but you have a more sustainable strike factory across the match for when kitty un-stuns and starts gobbling) would be just as viable for 4* players since eating damage does an immediate counterstun (length based on friendly specials in play) with the side effect of removing enemy specials immediately. 

dkffiv

ThaRoadWarrior said:

Would any of these changes help, hurt, or otherwise prevent you from playing him as you currently do?

If you switched to Dazzler and got the immediate stun + special removal as a counter to damage, would that be similarly viable for you, or is there something fundamental about how he is currently built that makes him your guy on offense?

Or is it specifically his defensive characteristics after you're done climbing that made him better?

The 4 turn stun on Kitty gives his team a chance to regain control and prevent the buffing of tiles out of control.  Dazzler requires your own special tiles and would only stun for 1 turn.

Other players stated they use him on the 5e nodes in PvE to beat teams normally impossible for them.

Hes a problem in the 5* tier due to lack of counter play.  His mechanics are balanced at the 4* tier because match damage (other than with Groots strike tiles) wont trigger him.  These changes address those problems. 

ThaRoadWarrior

the more specials you have out, the longer your counterstun with Dazzler. If you show up with Dazzler/Rocket, you get 100% enemy rocket strike removal and a 4-turn stun. Her stun doesn't require enemy specials on the board, only friendly. At 5 covers on black, my lvl 281 Dazzler will stun taking 820 damage, so a typicaly match-3 from a 5*. The problem I have with Dazzler is that she doesn't tank anything with black/red/green, being a relatively new character using all popular colors.

I can relate to difficult 5e nodes - as a 4* player I would use Vulture/G4mora for stunlocks, which remains a viable strategy.

DAZ0273

It depends on the make-up of the enemy team. In SHIELD Sim I will tend to run him with Half-health Thor or Jessica Jones and depending on who is with Kitty I might run Sabretooth, Medusa or even a high hitting red or green user like Moon Knight. If the enemy team has a Bishop then I will obviously avoid using a 5* in the hope I can get to the stun first.

My hope is to hit Kitty with as much overclocked damage as possible but otherwise to stun her ASAP to stop the ramping up of enemy specials. I might even bring somebody like Riri to take advantage of Thor's green AP generation to knock her out of the battle so I can attack the other team/get shot of specials also.

I like to keep my options open.

In the current SHIELD Sim I made it to 2000 without too much trouble and so left out a non-Bishop team which is subsequently getting pounded. I might go back and ruin a few players scores with spiteful retals but who knows, lol!

Obviously if I have used Bishop he might get left out on defence simply because he is the last team used but more likely I will have Thor/JJ and a 4* of choice other than Bishop unless I fancy running the ol' troll team of Bishop/XFDP/Peggy although I like Iceman in there too.

DAZ0273

Oh and I don't have Dazzler champed and so know very little about her.

ThaRoadWarrior

Dazzler is an excellent counter to 4ocket, save that she came out several years after he did and requires a huge cover-sink to get up to the kinds of levels that would make her a playable counter. Bishop jumps in front, essentially cutting in line and bypassing the "similarly leveled" requirement everyone else has when new. I felt she was going to be a critical piece of the anti-gritty squad, but then I realized the levels i'm facing on those teams means I need to park my BH on her for quite a long time to compensate. I have a feeling a 4* team of Dazzler/4ocket/Th4nos or Dazzler/Valkyrie/Th4nos would be good. Or sub in Sabretooth for Th4nos for a 4* player. 

I guess my point is that there are loads of options in 4* MMR for dealing with Gritty compared to the 0 real choices 5* players have for dealing with Bishop

DAZ0273

I wasn't going back down the rabbit hole to be honest, just answering your question. This topic has made me realise that it is pointless to try and justify or explain things, he works for me and so I'll use him until something better comes along, that isn't: Dazzler it seems regarding Kitty. I

ThaRoadWarrior

i don’t mean to imply you’re doing something wrong, or somehow make it seem like y’all don’t deserve this character. I think as a 5* transitioner I get stuck with the worst MMR and the least access to any potential counters to it lol. I may try and grow up my Dazzler next; she doesn’t overlap much with 5* Iceman who is a good special spammer that should work well with her, and I imagine she can be made to tank black and red at least...

So would any of the changes I proposed keep you from using him offensively the way you currently do?

DAZ0273

To be honest I would have to give it more analysis than I currently have done to answer that.

And, lol. No worries - we all do what we do, possibly there are better counters out there but I am being lazy. If Bish gets nuked I'll have to think more outside the box.

ThaRoadWarrior

This whole exercise is largely bench racing and thought experiments lol. The big problem with a counter at any tier is that "They're great, but ....<I don't have them, I can't get them, they don't tank anything, probably some others i forgot>"