Heart of Kiran, and Fabricate.

starfall

Can you just take Fabricate off Heart of Kiran, please? Having a huge vehicle with a defensive ability is really nice, it's not so hard to cheat into play without having to pay 25 mana, and you went to all the trouble of printing the card in the first place...

...but those Servos don't really do anything useful except slow the game down, like, A LOT, and you obviously aren't going to go to the trouble of fixing an old Legacy lag issue when you have so many new ones in Standard to sort out, so...

Don't redesign the card seriously, or anything, just make it a 16/16 instead of a 12/12 with Fabricate, the end.

Mburn7

If you're doing that, please also change the fabricate angel as well.

Although, since there are a lot of cards that care about supports and stuff I think taking out the Fabricate will make the card significantly worse, even with the same Power/Toughness/Abilities

Theros

The fabricates add some layer of strategy with mechanics that uses them like STV or other things that count them. They should increase the animation speed of all cards (tokens, servos, explore...) and PW abilities (H2, Jace 2, Chandra 2 ...)
Hybernum at point made the game really fast. But they reverted the change because the game was supposedly too fast for new players

Mburn7

Theros said:

The fabricates add some layer of strategy with mechanics that uses them like STV or other things that count them. They should increase the animation speed of all cards (tokens, servos, explore...) and PW abilities (H2, Jace 2, Chandra 2 ...)
Hybernum at point made the game really fast. But they reverted the change because the game was supposedly too fast for new players

You're right.  And now with the Battle Log there is no reason we shouldn't be able to go back to that (since the reason they undid the change was newer players were super confused)

Then again, as long as loading times stay as long as they are it doesn't really matter how fast the matches go.

Gunmix25

starfall said:

Can you just take Fabricate off Heart of Kiran, please? Having a huge vehicle with a defensive ability is really nice, it's not so hard to cheat into play without having to pay 25 mana, and you went to all the trouble of printing the card in the first place...

...but those Servos don't really do anything useful except slow the game down, like, A LOT, and you obviously aren't going to go to the trouble of fixing an old Legacy lag issue when you have so many new ones in Standard to sort out, so...

Don't redesign the card seriously, or anything, just make it a 16/16 instead of a 12/12 with Fabricate, the end.

A good point but we might as well ask that wishes be removed off Djinn and adapt gems from adaptation... the issue of the lag is tied to virtually every support that bridges to another creature, support or is in a constant state of checking the battlefield for valid action (vanguards). That is the problem that needs to be fixed. Otherwise we are shooting ourselves in the foot by limiting future sets to basic interactions.

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Azerack

Gunmix25 said:

 the issue of the lag is tied to virtually every support that bridges to another creature, support or is in a constant state of checking the battlefield for valid action (vanguards). That is the problem that needs to be fixed. Otherwise we are shooting ourselves in the foot by limiting future sets to basic interactions.

This! ^^

Instead of "fixing" a bunch of cards, fix the heart of the problem. 

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Azerack

To be clearer, fix the lag associated with supports on the board,  whether it's fabrications, Vanguards or whatever else will slow down the game once it exists in play.

Bil

Servos are clearly causing some annoying lag, but removing them ruins an significant number of interactions beetween cards, and even walkers (tezz 2 in particular).
 I would hate to see them disappear at least as much as i would love to see the servos lag fixed.

Gunmix25

starfall said:

Theros said:

The fabricates add some layer of strategy with mechanics that uses them like STV or other things that count them. They should increase the animation speed of all cards (tokens, servos, explore...) and PW abilities (H2, Jace 2, Chandra 2 ...)
Hybernum at point made the game really fast. But they reverted the change because the game was supposedly too fast for new players

I just don't think that the tiny number of interactions that Fabricate creates with other cards is worth the huge slowdown of playing with a Fabricate card.

Clearly, the best solution is to get rid of the slowdown while keeping the Fabricate effect, but we know that Oktagon are a company who find even small changes to the code very challenging, and they just don't have enough time to devote to the task.

I contend that the realistic solution is therefore to remove Fabricate from certain cards.

I want to point out a very interesting conundrum you presented here.

On one hand you say that the interaction you are referring to is about useless because of the lag it creates, yet if we get rid of the lag then it has value again. Yet we know that Oktagon notoriously struggles to revamp anything that Hibernium had created and rightfully so, because it isn't their code . So removing Fabricate will very likely be just as problematic as it would be to speed the interactions up while in play.

So ironically there really is no answer presented here. lol.

starfall said:

Gunmix25 said:

A good point but we might as well ask that wishes be removed off Djinn and adapt gems from adaptation... the issue of the lag is tied to virtually every support that bridges to another creature, support or is in a constant state of checking the battlefield for valid action (vanguards).

Agreed, but what you're saying here is "If you're going to make a small change to the game that can easily be made, you may as well make huge and sweeping changes to the game that will take ages", and that's obviously not true.

You misunderstood my point. You asked for a change in which to remove the fabricates to fix how slow the interaction is. Except the problem isn't just tied to Fabricate. Ask for one deletion and ignore the rest seems a bit rather specific and counterintuitive to begin with. That and that really doesn't solve the problem that exists in the first place, which logic only suggests that one would move on from Fabricate and ask for the next deletion to speed things along. A close analogy would be a length of road with speed bumps every 30 yds. and you're asking to remove one specific one to make things smoother at that point of the road (read as gameplay) but in truth the problem at its core really isn't fixed. So yes... to fix it would require a large sweeping change to speed up interactions or remove all of them together. regardless of either way you go. it will be time consuming.

starfall said:

Gunmix25 said:

A good point but we might as well ask that wishes be removed off Djinn and adapt gems from adaptation... the issue of the lag is tied to virtually every support that bridges to another creature, support or is in a constant state of checking the battlefield for valid action (vanguards).

Does Djinn really cause a lot of slowdown? i don't notice it slowdown as much as, say, Fabricate or Adapt.

Oh yes, it certainly does. Abuse Djinn a bit by making copies and various other ways to cheat him out. You'll see it slow down a bit. What makes it really bad is when the AI drops a support (any support) into the mix and the whole mess of wishes drops in speed about half. The interaction is weird with wishes. I usually avoid dropping any supports alongside Djinn if I able, else I run the risk of slowing down the match. If I just have wishes on the battlefield, then it slows down some once I am above 6 wishes. If any other support drops, especially from the AI side of things, the speed plummets until I remove said support.

Fabricate is slow to ETB IMHO but I don't experience any lag until I reach higher numbers, much in the manner wishes does.   Adapt lags right from the get go... Very annoying. I agree though, the mechanic is not a fun one and is frustratingly slow to produce and decent results. It certainly doesn't help its case any when it can't function at normal operating speeds.

I hope they fix the Vanguards too. They provide an interesting challenge and mechanic to the game even for the long term.

starfall said:

Gunmix25 said:

That is the problem that needs to be fixed. Otherwise we are shooting ourselves in the foot by limiting future sets to basic interactions.

It's possible that Oktagon may argue as that since the game is constantly introducing new mechanics, that removing slowdown from the game *as a general principle* may actually be impossible.

To which I would say, in that case, old mechanics should absolutely be stripped out of the game if it's the only way of speeding it up.

I completely agree with you here. The problems behind many of the bugs have to do with interactions between Oktagon and Hibernium coding. Not all, but many.

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Gunmix25

starfall said:

Gunmix25 said:

I completely agree with you here. The problems behind many of the bugs have to do with interactions between Oktagon and Hibernium coding. Not all, but many

You're letting Oktagon off the hook here. Practically everything new they do doesn't work first time around; new card, new events, new mechanics. Sometimes they have a few goes at things and fix them; sometimes they leave things broken.

Not really, they still need to be accountable for any and all bugs that occur regardless of whom had the code first.

"To which I would say, in that case, old mechanics should absolutely be stripped out of the game if it's the only way of speeding it up."

No offense meant, but this too is basically letting Oktagon off the hook by suggesting they simply wash their hands of Hibernium's code... which technically cannot happen without a full revamp of the system. It's too embedded.

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Gunmix25

 starfall said:

That's why I'm asking for one single change: For Heart of Kiran to become a simple 16/16 flying vigilance vehicle. I don't even care if it has Crew.

But how will it ever fly without a crew?

Azerack

starfall said:

Azerack said:

To be clearer, fix the lag associated with supports on the board,  whether it's fabrications, Vanguards or whatever else will slow down the game once it exists in play.

Why even attempt to ask for this? How old is Fabricate? 18 months? Theyve had plenty of time to fix it, we've asked for it to be fixed before, they've never mentioned it and clearly aren't going to fix it.

Why try and turn this thread into yet another version of an old thread which will get ignored in a similar fashion?

Because, no offense, your request is just as bad because it means Oktagon going to multiple cards and updating them so that ONE issue, among many on the board currently, can be alleviated. And then what? They come up with another way to slow down the board (Vanguards, for instance) that slow down the board, again.

Your request will be just as ignored as the original request to fix the lag on the board and/or understand what the lag is and how to not only fix it NOW, but learn how to prevent it with the next support/token support tactic that comes up.

I don't want to get one or two fish to adapt to bad pond water if I can just fix the water so it works for all the fish, right?
I would rather clean up the legacy code then just find a workaround for a couple issues.

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Theros

starfall said:

They DO these easy, corner case things, and they DON'T DO the big, complicated things because they don't have the time, the manpower, or the expertise to do them.

That's why I'm asking them to do an easy corner case thing.

Good point, they don't like to go out of their comfort zone to do something challenging or complicated. Whenever they do, that effort is geared toward unneeded things the community doesn't request/need.
They like easy fixes if we look at the past.
I don't think it is lack of time.

IM_CARLOS

Sounds like oktagon is burned as well. Time for next dev team please. 

Yes they brought us booster crafting and player level but the game itself is slow, uncomfortable and bugged like before. 

Gunmix25

  Theros said:

starfall said:

They DO these easy, corner case things, and they DON'T DO the big, complicated things because they don't have the time, the manpower, or the expertise to do them.

That's why I'm asking them to do an easy corner case thing.

Good point, they don't like to go out of their comfort zone to do something challenging or complicated. Whenever they do, that effort is geared toward unneeded things the community doesn't request/need.
They like easy fixes if we look at the past.
I don't think it is lack of time.

"Don't do the complicated things?" Weren't we all just talking about how Oktagon was over complicating new effects and abilities?