Is MPQs character progression flawed?

rkd80

Hi folks,

I am a bit new around here, but for whatever reason got addicted/interested in the game so I have been putting wayyyyyy too much time into it. I am at a point where I am transitioning to 2* characters and have been closely following polarity's guide (thanks btw!).

It dawned me the other day that the jump from 1* to 2* and eventually to 3* is bizarre and unlike any other game. In fact, it is downright backwards.

Typically, people collect and chase characters that are higher ranked (more stars in this case) because they are rare, and they are rare, because they are supposed to be more powerful. While this is true in MPQ, the power only comes at the very end. This creates a giant and massive time gap between transition, and not even a full transition, just introducing one 2* character to your seasoned 1* roster. I imagine this causes people to grind and get burned out and bored.

This is because in order for me, for example to start using Thor or Areas in lieu of IM35, I would need to get them to at least level 60+. In order to do that, I need to collect a very large number of covers and a very large amount of ISO. There is no transition, I will introduce them only when they reach that point and anything before that is actually detrimental. This is discouraging and odd.

A two-star rare character should be, pound for pound always better than a one-star common character.

Therefore, I would expect that a level 40 Ares or Thor to be as good if not better than a level 50 IM35. This is pretty much how every other game always worked.

Now, of course better is subjective. Perhaps they would not have more HP and damage output, but *something* would be stronger, enough such that it would really pose a question to the user as to who should be used. At this point, there is no question. You just sit and wait and hope to get more covers so that you can level them more.

Other than forcing people to buy the individual covers, what other design consideration is there?
This is just the 1*->2* transition. I imagine the 2*->3* is even worse.

This is why in PVP I am seeing 2* at 85 and 3* at 141. That is it. And that is not normal, there should be a very smooth gradient of level progression and it is completely and utterly absent in this game.

Unknown

It's flawed from the player perspective, especially confusing for new players who have been conditioned to expect differently.

But from a monetization perspective and preserving the rarity of a small amount of content, it seems to be working.

rkd80

If that is true, then the cost of this game becomes laughably stupid. I can buy a new XBOX one w/games for the amount of money it takes to have a robust 3* roster. I am not sure who has that kind of money to squander, but more power to them, however it will never create a vibrant/loyal community.

Based on the forum posts that I have read, it would appear that things have changed drastically in the last few months and it was not always like this.
For a new player, i am not encouraged to spend a dime here - there is no logical end!

Unknown

Toxicadam wrote:

But from a monetization perspective and preserving the rarity of a small amount of content, it seems to be working.

But how long can they keep it up? They're just looking at metrics week to week, hardline any baseline to compare against since they're introducing so many things all the time -- at least that's what it sounded like from the Venturebeat article.

My gut feeling is that this cannot keep up. I think a lot of veteran players like me were willing to pony up some $$$ because at first this DID seem like a game/company that truly care about its playerbase and delivering an actual Free-to-Win game, so giving some real money felt good.

I fear we'll see an exodus on both fronts -- veterans leaving due to the draconian IAP changes as well as game design penalties for being an advanced player, and retaining new players who haven't been able to build up a good roster easily like the old days, very little to incentivize them to stay in the long run.

Unknown

rkd80 wrote:

Hi folks,

I am a bit new around here, but for whatever reason got addicted/interested in the game so I have been putting wayyyyyy too much time into it. I am at a point where I am transitioning to 2* characters and have been closely following polarity's guide (thanks btw!).

It dawned me the other day that the jump from 1* to 2* and eventually to 3* is bizarre and unlike any other game. In fact, it is downright backwards.

Typically, people collect and chase characters that are higher ranked (more stars in this case) because they are rare, and they are rare, because they are supposed to be more powerful. While this is true in MPQ, the power only comes at the very end. This creates a giant and massive time gap between transition, and not even a full transition, just introducing one 2* character to your seasoned 1* roster. I imagine this causes people to grind and get burned out and bored.

This is because in order for me, for example to start using Thor or Areas in lieu of IM35, I would need to get them to at least level 60+. In order to do that, I need to collect a very large number of covers and a very large amount of ISO. There is no transition, I will introduce them only when they reach that point and anything before that is actually detrimental. This is discouraging and odd.

A two-star rare character should be, pound for pound always better than a one-star common character.

Therefore, I would expect that a level 40 Ares or Thor to be as good if not better than a level 50 IM35. This is pretty much how every other game always worked.

Now, of course better is subjective. Perhaps they would not have more HP and damage output, but *something* would be stronger, enough such that it would really pose a question to the user as to who should be used. At this point, there is no question. You just sit and wait and hope to get more covers so that you can level them more.

Other than forcing people to buy the individual covers, what other design consideration is there?
This is just the 1*->2* transition. I imagine the 2*->3* is even worse.

This is why in PVP I am seeing 2* at 85 and 3* at 141. That is it. And that is not normal, there should be a very smooth gradient of level progression and it is completely and utterly absent in this game.

What you are observing is similar to the effect of an MMO that has experienced multiple expansions. After 8-9 months of the game, the devs are trying to push everyone through the 1* and 2** game as fast as possible now, fast forwarding to the currently accepted minimum progression in the game as the 2** --> 3*** transition.

As stated in numerous threads on the board, the progression problem is twofold. First, is that the chasm representing the 3*** transition, separating the 2** 85 teams from the 3** 141 teams, is nearly uncrossable at this point without a very considerable cash investment in the game. The removal of guaranteed featured heroes from cover packs as well as the trend to not run a featured hero in enough events to allow free players to create a complete build of 3*** character before moving on to the next feature hero hurts progression across the chasm as well. The intent here is clearly to frustrate the end-user enough to purchase the missing covers to create a complete build of a 3*** character to enable the transition to occur. For most, the hardest aspect of the game is obtaining and leveling that first 141 character.

Second, is that should the chasm be crossed, a player is quickly notices giant "Under Construction" signs everywhere. The 3*** --> 4**** transition for progression has never been constructed fully, and there are no signs that the progression will be completed anytime soon. Over the entire span of the game, there are only 2 4**** characters (not counting Fury, who will be released in an incomplete state tomorrow with only one color finished), with the only semi-functional 4**** character being Invisible Woman as a defensive character. Wolverine's X-Force build has had placeholder stats for over four months and counting. This is almost no reason at all to even attempt to progress at the 3*** point of the game currently.

Meanwhile, the devs have focused nearly all of their efforts on monetization of the 2** --> 3*** transition, instead of progression. Because of the cover system, power on 2** and especially 3*** characters are heavily weighted towards back end of the leveling system for each character. You need at a minimum 10 of a 3***'s 13 covers for the character to be functionally equivalent to that of a maxed out 2** character. This is because the potency of most abilities require a 4th or 5th cover in each color to be unlocked and that higher rarity characters have slower advancement curves. As you mentioned a 60 2** = 50 1*; and a 100 3*** = 85 2**. Also note, that at these points of equivalence, that only half of the required ISO for max level of that character will have been spent. Thus, levels 61-85 will cost as much as 6-60, and 103-141 the same as 15-102. This is done to require considerable investment in a character to bring them up to fighting speed.

The system as it was originally, was fine with a progression up to full 3***s. Now, with the removal of the 1* and 2** portions of the progression curve, the result is an uncomfortably small progression curve where everyone is pushed to start at the 3*** transition and ends at building a full 3*** team. It is a very awkward situation indeed.

LordWill

grimbergen wrote:

Toxicadam wrote:

But from a monetization perspective and preserving the rarity of a small amount of content, it seems to be working.

But how long can they keep it up? They're just looking at metrics week to week, hardline any baseline to compare against since they're introducing so many things all the time -- at least that's what it sounded like from the Venturebeat article.

My gut feeling is that this cannot keep up. I think a lot of veteran players like me were willing to pony up some $$$ because at first this DID seem like a game/company that truly care about its playerbase and delivering an actual Free-to-Win game, so giving some real money felt good.

I fear we'll see an exodus on both fronts -- veterans leaving due to the draconian IAP changes as well as game design penalties for being an advanced player, and retaining new players who haven't been able to build up a good roster easily like the old days, very little to incentivize them to stay in the long run.

I agree.

A thought struck me last night, I wondered if they had a choice between making the game better just for the sake of the game (you know because they love it and they love making great games for players to enjoy, which is why they spend countless hours developing them) and the player base but made a little less money OR Continue with the methods of operation.

I wonder....

Oh wait, they do have a choice, silly me

Unknown

grimbergen wrote:

Toxicadam wrote:

But from a monetization perspective and preserving the rarity of a small amount of content, it seems to be working.

But how long can they keep it up? They're just looking at metrics week to week, hardline any baseline to compare against since they're introducing so many things all the time -- at least that's what it sounded like from the Venturebeat article.

My gut feeling is that this cannot keep up. I think a lot of veteran players like me were willing to pony up some $$$ because at first this DID seem like a game/company that truly care about its playerbase and delivering an actual Free-to-Win game, so giving some real money felt good.

I fear we'll see an exodus on both fronts -- veterans leaving due to the draconian IAP changes as well as game design penalties for being an advanced player, and retaining new players who haven't been able to build up a good roster easily like the old days, very little to incentivize them to stay in the long run.

That is a very good question to ask, and one that this highly relevant here.

Sadly, the reality of F2P games is that the veteran players achieve little of the game's long term revenues. Where the money is made is in the mythical first five days of an account's existence. An industry article that was cited awhile back noted that 85% of the F2P industry's revenues derive from accounts that are within the first five days of creation. By this time, most players have moved on to newer games, although MPQ does appear to hold some above average level of stickiness amongst its users and bucks the trend somewhat. Nevertheless, the fact of the matter is that for monetization purposes, the devs' attention will always be focused on the "new player experience" to lock in as much revenue as possible in those all important first five days. Before the bracketing of the Season simulator, the player count for the event was about 136k, and probably will end in the 140k range. Over the last time this information was presented via the global Hulk, 3rd run, event which had a player base of 105k, this represents a 33% increase in the player base that is at least trying the game out, which is good for the devs.

On the American Google Play store, the app has been trending 39th in gross revenues this week and moved up to 35th this morning. So, clearly, revenues are being produced, although these results could be somewhat influenced by the recent sales that were offered on HP/ISO.

TL;DR - As long as new players keep trying the game out, ultimately it does not matter what the veterans do. If the established veterans quit in rage, then new "veterans" will simply rise to take their place in the game.

Unknown

rkd80 wrote:

If that is true, then the cost of this game becomes laughably stupid. I can buy a new XBOX one w/games for the amount of money it takes to have a robust 3* roster.

Still don't think 700 dollars (cost of Xbox One and games) would 'buy you a robust 3 * roster". You would still need to invest hours and hours into the game in order to get those covers first, then way more ISO earned to level them up.

Basically, time(luck) = money in this game (and all F2P games). That's the rub and how they make their money. I battle of wills and patience between the game and the player.

For a new player, i am not encouraged to spend a dime here - there is no logical end!

I approach it like this, if the game gives you 'XXX amount hours of real enjoyment', spend XX amount of dollars'. I spend 10-20 dollars for every 100-150 hours of entertainment. But if the game tests my patience and makes it too grindy, I'm going to delete the game or shelve it.

LordWill

Lyrian wrote:

grimbergen wrote:

Toxicadam wrote:

But from a monetization perspective and preserving the rarity of a small amount of content, it seems to be working.

But how long can they keep it up? They're just looking at metrics week to week, hardline any baseline to compare against since they're introducing so many things all the time -- at least that's what it sounded like from the Venturebeat article.

My gut feeling is that this cannot keep up. I think a lot of veteran players like me were willing to pony up some $$$ because at first this DID seem like a game/company that truly care about its playerbase and delivering an actual Free-to-Win game, so giving some real money felt good.

I fear we'll see an exodus on both fronts -- veterans leaving due to the draconian IAP changes as well as game design penalties for being an advanced player, and retaining new players who haven't been able to build up a good roster easily like the old days, very little to incentivize them to stay in the long run.

That is a very good question to ask, and one that this highly relevant here.

Sadly, the reality of F2P games is that the veteran players achieve little of the game's long term revenues. Where the money is made is in the mythical first five days of an account's existence. An industry article that was cited awhile back noted that 85% of the F2P industry's revenues derive from accounts that are within the first five days of creation. By this time, most players have moved on to newer games, although MPQ does appear to hold some above average level of stickiness amongst its users and bucks the trend somewhat. Nevertheless, the fact of the matter is that for monetization purposes, the devs' attention will always be focused on the "new player experience" to lock in as much revenue as possible in those all important first five days. Before the bracketing of the Season simulator, the player count for the event was about 136k, and probably will end in the 140k range. Over the last time this information was presented via the global Hulk, 3rd run, event which had a player base of 105k, this represents a 33% increase in the player base that is at least trying the game out, which is good for the devs.

On the American Google Play store, the app has been trending 39th in gross revenues this week and moved up to 35th this morning. So, clearly, revenues are being produced, although these results could be somewhat influenced by the recent sales that were offered on HP/ISO.

TL;DR - As long as new players keep trying the game out, ultimately it does not matter what the veterans do. If the established veterans quit in rage, then new "veterans" will simply rise to take their place in the game.

You are spot on which is why I don't post as much anymore. Maybe a comment or two but I have said what I have to say. Now I just play and hope maybe they will listen. In the end they will do whatever makes them the most money at the expense of everything else.

I still love the game and want D3 and Demiurge to do well. Maybe as IceIX said that they do look at the effects they have on players and maybe things will change. MAYBE.

Unknown

Lyrian wrote:

TL;DR - As long as new players keep trying the game out, ultimately it does not matter what the veterans do. If the established veterans quit in rage, then new "veterans" will simply rise to take their place in the game.

I can see they are taking this approach, but what I don't get is then why they do certain things that only affect the veteran community (and negatively, at that).

For example, the spider-man nerf -- there's basically no net impact to any new players.

Given the abursdly rare rate of *** drops and his in particular, there’s no way a new user that they’re attempting to fleece in the first few days (or even weeks at the current rate) would ever face him in PVP or get enough covers of him to he usable.

And, correct me if I’m wrong, while there are lots of complaints of Spider-man in these forums of the vocal minority, I’ve never seen anyone post quitting because spider-man is too broken.

Yet, all the other “enhancements” do elicit that response.

Why are they intentionally angering the veteran playerbase who do have the impetus to spend more? While it’s smaller than the new user whales, revenue is revenue.

It seems there’s a total lack of product development guys thinking this through. Just executive management looking at the bottom line telling developers and designers(? If any) to bring in more money no matter what.

Unknown

It's only confusing in the sense that the game is a lot more complicated than most people think so you can easily end up leveling the wrong guys.

But then this is hardly different from say playing a MMORPG and spent 200 hours leveling up a class you later found out to be totally useless because they suck compared to others. Knowledge is always a huge edge for those who have it in games that require a large amount of playing hours.

In general if you simply level up whoever is currently featured while you're building your roster, it should work out reasonably well enough (assuming this action gives you some edge in the event that features the character). You have to know when you're actually close enough to getting a powerful 3* and save up HP for either cover upgrades or shields to win an event that features such a hero though.

Unknown

When the game originally released there were only 50 levels for all character levels. The devs felt that it was hard to tell if a level 12 3* was better than a level 25 1*. that's when they came up with 50,85,141,230 system.

I agree with the flawed progression. With three 141s I don't know why I even bother to compete because it takes weeks or months to make a usable character at this level.

Unknown

Iron Batman wrote:

When the game originally released there were only 50 levels for all character levels. The devs felt that it was hard to tell if a level 12 3* was better than a level 25 1*. that's when they came up with 50,85,141,230 system.
.

I'm not understanding how that was supposed to make it clear... all the 50/85/141 tells someone is the max level, in fact it just made it more complex. I mean the level/power progression seems to make sense between * and ** (e.g. comparing L40 * vs L40**), but when comparing a L85** to a L85*** the *** is usually weaker.

Was that the same when things were 1-50 for all rarities? I'm assuming it's the opposite, if everyone's on the same scale you can then see a L45** being weaker than a L45***?

Unknown

When the game started the progress seemed logical and seemed to work, it also seemed that you earned more ISO then. Now they are giving two star covers like candy ( for winning a a 1/1/23 lightning round battle) and withholding 3 star covers with extreme vigor. It's a strange change. The part of progression that seems broken to me is ISO. In every game I've played as you progress the points earned progresses. You win more at level twenty than at level 1 because upgrades cost so much more. But here there is no change.

I'm totally ok with them putting vets in a bracket and noobs in a bracket, and even giving same cover prize out, but the ISO should be different. 3000 ISO for a two and a half day grind against a field of 141/141/212 is laughable. They are releasing more players now than early on and the idea that some day I could even come close to completing this game is impossible.

I play games because they are fun, but I also like getting the platinum trophys, but here I don't see how I will ever even by 50 percent complete. That bums me out.

rkd80

I do not understand that decision my the dev team whatsoever. Under what circumstance would a glaring 3 star character who is rare be confusing to a character that everyone has?

Because of their system there is absolutely no gradient and no transition period. No one is going to roll out a half-assed character, so people will sit until 10-13 covers are collected and then dump ISO into them, if not enough ISO is available for level then they wont bring them out. This is what makes the game unlike any other game and is completely backwards.

The second a 1* roster starts getting Thor, Ares and C.Storm they should be itching to put them into the roster and yet there is zero reason to do so. To add insult to injury, even when you put a ton of effort into finding and collecting, leveling up, etc you are still at best on equal footing with your existing team. Pray tell, where is the logic behind that?

If the devs had any sense, they would make the acquisition of ALL subsequent rare covers an experience that can positively impact the player. Instead its just a grind, and I am at the stage of the game where there is a light at the end of the tunnel. I imagine once the 2* roster is fleshed out, that light will vanish - because 3* covers and amount of iso needed for level 141 is daunting to say the least.

Two easy recommendations that I can think of immediately:

1) Allow for leveling of 2* covers right away, more so for 3*.
2) If you play 2* or 3* characters in your roster in any event, then rewards scale. So for example, you can win that match with IM35/storm/m.bw and get your ranking points, but if you rotate in Thor your rewards go up 25% and chance for a 2* recruit go up. If you bring in thor and ares, your chance goes up 50%. Etc, etc. That way you risk losing because the characters are weaker, but if you win, the rewards match your risk.

Unknown

Under-leveled and under-covered characters are still viable when boosted, and since every event features *some* boosting, saying that characters are useless until fully developed is a pretty major exaggeration.

And rewards scaling is a bad idea. Creating a "rich get richer" environment (or more of one) is exactly the direction D3 shouldn't want to go.

Unknown

ZenBrillig wrote:

Under-leveled and under-covered characters are still viable when boosted, and since every event features *some* boosting, saying that characters are useless until fully developed is a pretty major exaggeration.

And rewards scaling is a bad idea. Creating a "rich get richer" environment (or more of one) is exactly the direction D3 shouldn't want to go.

The rich are already going to get richer. Can you name another game where progression points remain the same from the beginning battles to the battle much later in the game.

Unknown

Even if it is just a per battle increase related to the quality of team you beat. Eg. If the level total of enemy is under 100 your prize pool is x. If it is under 260 it is pool y. Under 420 pool z and over that pool a. Can you he neatly say that 70 ISO matters when your looking at 170k for one 3 star complete. When you beat 212/141/141 you should be getting 500 ISO sometimes.

rkd80

But it *must* scale! Getting 70 ISO when you need 100k of it is insulting.

MarvelMan

ZenBrillig wrote:

And rewards scaling is a bad idea. Creating a "rich get richer" environment (or more of one) is exactly the direction D3 shouldn't want to go.

That depends on whether you are talking reward scaling in absolute or relative terms. Right now, the gain (20/105 iso) is abysmally low when compared to the cost of leveling a 3* or 4*. So they could implement scaling as relates to opponent level/MMR without the "rich get richer" environment you are afraid of. In fact, the scaling could be pretty minor and the environment would still be the "poor get richer faster than the rich" that we have now.

(edit: update iso example to include PVE and PVP)

Unknown

We all seem to be on the same page here. The only logical reason not to implement this is money. And I see that they don't want to give away ISO, but 500 per battle still isn't going to be fast enough for the people who pay to level character. And it would help retain a lot of the f2p players. Maybe even encourage them to pay for rare covers they need to complete their favorite character that actually have some ISO to invest in. As it is now I wouldn't by a cover for a character because I already have millions of ISO to earn before I need that last hood cover.