Thoughts on PVP

Pero1979

hello everyone
long time viewer of this forum but this is my first post.  I’ve been playing now for about a year and a half but I am finding PVP to become very boring and almost impossible. I play level 7 and i can reach up to about 650 points having fun playing. But then I start to find it unfair after that. I then am playing the same five people over and over with insane rosters. I’m playing against over 60k plus kitty pryde and rocket/groot and no matter how many times I skip the board there they are again. I just want to get that 4 star cover and be done with it but it’s insane now. Many people I play against are either in whale alliances or have been playing since the start of the game so they were able to amass rosters early on when there weren’t many characters. Therefore they championed them quickly and keep on adding to their levels. For someone like me who entered when there are already a ton of playable characters it makes it impossible to champion characters because we never get their covers in the draw. For anyone who wants to download the game now and start from scratch they have no chance. 

Something has to be done. At first I thought nerfing kitty would be a solution but now I don’t think so. There’s just too many characters to get and more added almost every other week! How can anyone like me compete? That’s only fun for people whose rosters are already fully championed and looking for something new!

there maybe has to be changes on who can play certain levels. For example people playing certain levels cannot play with a five or four star greater than a certain level of strength for example level 7 can’t have a five star greater than 350. I don’t know. What are your thoughts?

Phumade

I would go for 40 wins.  Its often much faster and simpler for rosters in your situation.  Retreat a few matches until you see comparable teams and resume playing for wins. 

The best advice I ever got was start the event early and push fhard for your wins objective.  Youll have access to easier teams, and then reassess in the last day if you want to play for placement etc.  In any case I wouldn't bother with shielding until the last day.

HoundofShadow

I find it strange. You have played for about a year and you are facing champed Kitty in PvP? Did you level up your 5* to high level?

To let the community help you better:

1) Have you champed all 3*? 
2) How many champed 4* do you have?
3) Who are your top 5 characters, based on level?
4) How do you play PvP? For example, do you play immediately after PvP start or do you play PvP at the last few hours?
5) Which time slice do you play?

Try playing PvP 1 day after that time slice starts and see if it's easier.

Warbringa

I do believe PvP needs a serious overhaul and has for a long, long time.  It is part of the reason I play mainly just PvE.  The other parts of course are the huge time sink that this game is and the other is PvE rewards are just better.

DAZ0273

One thing to note - playing SCL7 has absolutely no effect whatsoever on who you can fight and who can fight you. The only thing that SC7 determines is what awards you can get and who you are competing against for placement scores. Nothing else. In PVP it makes sense at level 7 and above to just play the highest one and thus maximise rewards.

PvP can be complicated. HoundofShadow's points 4 & 5 above could be the answer to some of your problems - players just assume that there is access to all other rosters at all times in your shard but this really is not the case. When you play is very important. You may need to start experimenting with different time slots but especially take note of when your successful periods of being able to queue targets is and maximise effort at these times. 

Waddles_Pines

Another thing is that just because there's a progression reward list doesn't mean that full progression is achievable to everyone. It's something that can be communicated better (ie strength of roster/mmr).  But, as pointed out by @Phumade, you can go the wins route.  It's all about managing your expectations; in regards to time commitment and rewards.  

Pero1979

HoundofShadow said:

I find it strange. You have played for about a year and you are facing champed Kitty in PvP? Did you level up your 5* to high level?

To let the community help you better:

1) Have you champed all 3*? 
2) How many champed 4* do you have?
3) Who are your top 5 characters, based on level?
4) How do you play PvP? For example, do you play immediately after PvP start or do you play PvP at the last few hours?
5) Which time slice do you play?

Try playing PvP 1 day after that time slice starts and see if it's easier.

I have all my 3 stars champed and about 20 four stars hampers. I have a champed five star ghost rider and everyone else just 2 or 3 covers. I usually play within 24 hours of the finale to get the 900 points and then stop. The time slice varies depending on my work schedule. I appreciate everyone’s input

tupacboy

The champed 5 star is why you're facing other 5 champs...

helix72

I believe (someone can confirm) your only option is to not use your champed 5* in any match in PvP. Use him once, and you'll be paired against other 5* rosters for the remainder of the event.

Honorable mention: making Loki an essential and requiring him in nodes with no tile movers and no special tile makers (or at least really slow and random ones).

Phumade

helix72 said:

I believe (someone can confirm) your only option is to not use your champed 5* in any match in PvP. Use him once, and you'll be paired against other 5* rosters for the remainder of the event.

Honorable mention: making Loki an essential and requiring him in nodes with no tile movers and no special tile makers (or at least really slow and random ones).

Sorta. That only changes what team is shown on defense. The presence of the 5* still affects who he can / see.  But really I think the issue is once over 700 the mmr pool changes.  No matter what your roster looks like, past a certain point level you will see all players with similar scores and rosters.   This is probably connected to the ELO style point scoring and ranking.  

No no matter what your roster levels look like, once oast 700-900 ( it varies) you get thrown into the deep end where everyone can see your points and que you

BriMan2222

Your problem is the one champed 5 star.  Your opponents are selected in part based on the highest level characters you have.  If you have a champed 5 star you will be matched against champed 5 stars. 

This is why experienced players always warn not to jump into 5 star lands until you are able to champ at least 2 five stars at once. 

HoundofShadow

I think OP must be a Kraken. Ghost Rider was released in Jan 2018 and he managed to champ him within one year of playing MPQ. 

Anyway, if it's possible, try breaking out  your PvP playtime. Do a 400 or 575, then do another 725 or 900. Try to note down your floating points in PvP. 

Pero1979

HoundofShadow said:

I think OP must be a Kraken. Ghost Rider was released in Jan 2018 and he managed to champ him within one year of playing MPQ. 

Anyway, if it's possible, try breaking out  your PvP playtime. Do a 400 or 575, then do another 725 or 900. Try to note down your floating points in PvP. 

Yeah he was my first five star so I hearted him until I was able to champion 

Pero1979

For example this first avenger pvp that is ending now I shielded at 20 wins 840 points. Just got home from work and decided to get up to the 900. I wound up finishing with 40 wins and 760 total points. Attacked like crazy and fought against rosters that I didn’t stand a chance. I’m playing with my championed ghost rider and championed chavez. I exhausted all my boosts and now I’m seriously thinking about stopping playing entirely. I might be whining a little but I feel it’s a little unfair and not too much fun anymore

Phumade

Pero1979 said:

For example this first avenger pvp that is ending now I shielded at 20 wins 840 points. Just got home from work and decided to get up to the 900. I wound up finishing with 40 wins and 760 total points. Attacked like crazy and fought against rosters that I didn’t stand a chance. I’m playing with my championed ghost rider and championed chavez. I exhausted all my boosts and now I’m seriously thinking about stopping playing entirely. I might be whining a little but I feel it’s a little unfair and not too much fun anymore

It would have been a lot easier to win 20 matches starting wth 8 seeds at event start.  Then 12 more wins against similar rosters, on day1.  Get hit down to 500 overnight, then win 10 matches the next day (30 total).  Get hit back down to 500,  Then inside 11hrs. Win 8 matches, shield 3hrs,  inside 8hrs,  win 2matchs, shield out on a 8hr.  

You would probably have a better score, 40 wins and less stress

event start:  win 8 seeds +12 matches ( total of 20) then float;
day 1, win 10 more matches and float or retreat below600
day 2, around 11hrs left,  win 8 matches, shield 3hrs
 inside 8hrs, win 2-3 more matches to get to 40 wins shield out on 8hrs
inside 3hrs, look for appropriate targets and play for points where possible shield out on a 3hr.

thats a very realistic plan that any roster should be able to execute and not require high level coordination or deep knowledge of how other people play.

tchipley

Phumade said:

.....

It would have been a lot easier to win 20 matches starting wth 8 seeds at event start.  Then 12 more wins against similar rosters, on day1.  Get hit down to 500 overnight, then win 10 matches the next day (30 total).  Get hit back down to 500,  Then inside 11hrs. Win 8 matches, shield 3hrs,  inside 8hrs,  win 2matchs, shield out on a 8hr.  

You would probably have a better score, 40 wins and less stress

event start:  win 8 seeds +12 matches ( total of 20) then float;
day 1, win 10 more matches and float or retreat below600
day 2, around 11hrs left,  win 8 matches, shield 3hrs
 inside 8hrs, win 2-3 more matches to get to 40 wins shield out on 8hrs
inside 3hrs, look for appropriate targets and play for points where possible shield out on a 3hr.

thats a very realistic plan that any roster should be able to execute and not require high level coordination or deep knowledge of how other people play.

I like the laid out plan you presented here.

What is still bothersome for many players is seeing the same teams over and over even with the skip.
Also you take a beating while you wait before trying the climb without a shield. Not many consider it fun to get a message telling you that you have lost some hard won points usually at a rate faster than you can acquire them. 
I'll all for the 40 wins option but when you get close to that you are again back at "Same Teams" threshold.

PVP is definitely broke. 

bluewolf

PVP is built to encourage spending HP/money on shields and preserving your points/placement.  Feeling frustrated by it (not being able to just build up your score, and reach progression goals, easily) is intentional and designed to make you want to spend HP on shields.  (leaving aside the negative aspects of score inflation and how that impacts players, the possibilities of placement, and how that affects your desire to play)

Many, many players aren't in the mindset of spending HP and therefore don't try hard to maintain points/placement because they have no desire to use HP for this purpose.  So their scores will be limited by the fact that most people who aren't going to shield are going to stop trying around the 4* cover (at the most), making 900 the typical top score that people reach before they stop playing/trying to build score and allow people to hit them.

People going for placement will almost always be shielded as the event winds down except for their short hops.  Even though they are worth a lot of points, you can't target them until they break shields.

If you are trying to play a PVP event, especially near the end, you will have the following people out/findable for targeting:

1.  The lucky window (unless you are in a Line room):  Finding that person who is hopping, during their hop, and hitting them.  This will likely require a lot of time spent skipping.

2.  People who are all out and hitting people like crazy, trying to gain enough points or wins to hit a threshold; their points are probably not very high, especially if you are hoping to get to 900 or more, since they are all hitting each other and losing points as fast as they get them.

3.  Some slices have suppressors who are out, playing like crazy and floating at a fairly high level.

4.  Late climbers and hoppers; people who have multiple champed 5s who wait for a late flip, join late and climb fast hitting anyone they can, probably shielding 2-3 times on the way to 1200.

Who you see is also dependent, of course, on your roster level, their roster level, your score vs their score, etc.

But the point is that playing hard in the final hours of a PVP is almost certain to be both demoralizing and frustrating if your goal is anything besides accumulating wins.  Unless you are one of the people with multiple champed 5's who are gaming the system, so to speak.

In terms of the fact that you only see the same people, that is because you reach a threshold where you are above most of the people who are out and the ones who are out are now are annoying enough to not hit (they have a relatively high float point and are playing a lot to keep their score high).  If you climb above them, you would possibly see the lower people worth single digits.  Also, sometimes people with very large rosters are out but you can't see them because of the difference in your roster strengths, and the game trying to show you people relatively close to your level.

PiMacleod

IMO, it's all another part of the game that needs an overhaul.  It worked early on, when there weren't this many character options, this meta, and all of the headaches that brings.

Sure, you can make it work now.  You all seem to know the formula.  But isn't that a bit silly?  There's a formula... A strategy entirely separate from playing a match 3 game; a tactic entirely different from matching teams of heroes/villians against each other... In order to be successful.

I've heard that some people enjoy it.  I personally would think that if the game was DESIGNED to be played in this manner, that the people who designed it would have such a tutorial packed in, to divulge such important information.  Maybe not all the little factoids like which slice is more favorable to what players or whatever, but stuff about Shield Hopping, skipping to lower your points in order to get "easier" match-ups, etc.  All of this info is absent, yet the game presents itself as if it's just a friendly match 3 game against another player's pre-set team... And it's not.

It's like turning on Street Fighter to play against someone online, winning your few fights online, turning it off, then tomorrow, turning it back on and seeing that you've lost some sort of in game standings, or worldwide leaderboard positioning, due to things that happened when you weren't playing.  Sure, other players could have passed you in the standings, but to say you lost points when you weren't even playing is a little irritating.  It's a NPE, or Negative Player Experience. 

Unfortunately, my example loses a little credibility because online fighting games, FPS, and other competitive experiences are all known to have leaderboards and whatnot... You expect to be challenged, and the expectations in those genres is that the people who play more generally sit higher up.  Also, those game types will have menus of basic info to describe this on a basic level.  Which brings us back to...

Why is there no in game tutorial to describe these basics?  OR why do such things exist in a match 3 superhero game?  Especially when you put the carrot out there in the form of progression rewards... Can't help but wonder how the game would change if all progression rewards were just added (in a fair manner) to the placement rewards.
And vice versa for PvE.  Keep the two mindsets of playing in separate playgrounds, so to speak.

Finally, on a separate but relatable PvP centric note, I really hate how the higher you power up your roster, the more obsolete a % of your roster becomes.  I can't tell you how many imaginitive teams I've tried and failed in PvP with, only because these 4*s (mostly) can't hang with (most) 5*s.  Sure, the HP and damage make some sense, but there's such a blatant gap in usability when it comes to 4*s like Bishop, Medusa, Grocket, versus 4*s like ...most of the 4*s.     It's not even like most of them are bad!  They just aren't as good, especially as 5*s keep that power creep rolling.

/rant (sorry about all of that... I just like a balanced product, and I'll never understand why developers can just blatantly leave an imbalanced roster out there, in a time period of games where we have patches to fix such a thing.  I would like to think pride in ownership means something)

DAZ0273

Part of me thinks that maybe the game should have a pop up when you get to be able to champ your first 5*, like it does when you are going to sell a cover and it warns you of the dire consequences of what you are about to do:

"Raise levels and Champ single 5*? Are you sure? Wait, is that Kingpin? We wouldn't do that if we were you and we invented this game but if you really want to ruin your experience? Howabout a free standard token instead and 250 iso? No? Well OK buddy..."

PiMacleod

DAZ0273 said:

Part of me thinks that maybe the game should have a pop up when you get to be able to champ your first 5*, like it does when you are going to sell a cover and it warns you of the dire consequences of what you are about to do:

"Raise levels and Champ single 5*? Are you sure? Wait, is that Kingpin? We wouldn't do that if we were you and we invented this game but if you really want to ruin your experience? Howabout a free standard token instead and 250 iso? No? Well OK buddy..."

"Are you sure you wanna champ 'Wasp'?"
(Yes no answer)
"No really... We need to make sure..."
(Yes no answer)
"For realsies... She's your first or second 5* to hit 13 covers and be championable.  Do you know what this will do to your PvP experience?  We suggest hitting "No" but its your decision to make..."
(Yes no answer)

Daredevil217

PiMacleod said:

IMO, it's all another part of the game that needs an overhaul.  It worked early on, when there weren't this many character options, this meta, and all of the headaches that brings.

Sure, you can make it work now.  You all seem to know the formula.  But isn't that a bit silly?  There's a formula... A strategy entirely separate from playing a match 3 game; a tactic entirely different from matching teams of heroes/villians against each other... In order to be successful.

I've heard that some people enjoy it.  I personally would think that if the game was DESIGNED to be played in this manner, that the people who designed it would have such a tutorial packed in, to divulge such important information.  Maybe not all the little factoids like which slice is more favorable to what players or whatever, but stuff about Shield Hopping, skipping to lower your points in order to get "easier" match-ups, etc.  All of this info is absent, yet the game presents itself as if it's just a friendly match 3 game against another player's pre-set team... And it's not.

It's like turning on Street Fighter to play against someone online, winning your few fights online, turning it off, then tomorrow, turning it back on and seeing that you've lost some sort of in game standings, or worldwide leaderboard positioning, due to things that happened when you weren't playing.  Sure, other players could have passed you in the standings, but to say you lost points when you weren't even playing is a little irritating.  It's a NPE, or Negative Player Experience. 

Unfortunately, my example loses a little credibility because online fighting games, FPS, and other competitive experiences are all known to have leaderboards and whatnot... You expect to be challenged, and the expectations in those genres is that the people who play more generally sit higher up.  Also, those game types will have menus of basic info to describe this on a basic level.  Which brings us back to...

Why is there no in game tutorial to describe these basics?  OR why do such things exist in a match 3 superhero game?  Especially when you put the carrot out there in the form of progression rewards... Can't help but wonder how the game would change if all progression rewards were just added (in a fair manner) to the placement rewards.
And vice versa for PvE.  Keep the two mindsets of playing in separate playgrounds, so to speak.

Finally, on a separate but relatable PvP centric note, I really hate how the higher you power up your roster, the more obsolete a % of your roster becomes.  I can't tell you how many imaginitive teams I've tried and failed in PvP with, only because these 4*s (mostly) can't hang with (most) 5*s.  Sure, the HP and damage make some sense, but there's such a blatant gap in usability when it comes to 4*s like Bishop, Medusa, Grocket, versus 4*s like ...most of the 4*s.     It's not even like most of them are bad!  They just aren't as good, especially as 5*s keep that power creep rolling.

/rant (sorry about all of that... I just like a balanced product, and I'll never understand why developers can just blatantly leave an imbalanced roster out there, in a time period of games where we have patches to fix such a thing.  I would like to think pride in ownership means something)

My thoughts on your rant...

1. Almost every single competitive (key word) game has a meta. Even though it’s a match 3 game, MPQ is no different. Meta teams and optimal strategies are rarely spelt out.  Having to search a little bit isn’t a bad thing. Even in a non-competitive single player game I’m finally playing now (Spider-Man), I’ve  researched the best suit powers, and what’s the optimal strategy to beat these stupid drone challenges. Games don’t spell this stuff out. MPQ is no different. I did research on the best characters to champ once I hit 3* land, and looked forward to reading character ranking lists. There are tons of metas in this game from how to spend your resources most efficiently to how to clear PVE optimally, to farming strategies. Luckily we have a great community that shares this stuff so like you said, it becomes common knowledge. 

2. Your solution is to make one part of the game competitive and another not competitive (remember competitive was the key word). Yes, that is a way to remove the meta element. But the way the game is designed, you can play both PVE and PVP competitively or play both progression only. I have done both so I know it works. In fact, when there are double iso events (as we just had), I will opt to play for wins instead of points. I like the bump in resource drops so want to play more matches. The crazy thing is I went to bed, woke up, and had the exact same number of wins, never having to shield. It worked just like you’re asking. 

3. 4* being unable to hang with 5s seems fine to me as well. Just like 1s can’t hang with 2s, 2s with 3s, etc. that should be how it is. In fact, I get mad when we get 5s that are easily handled by 4s (Wasp, Kingpin, etc.), and I look at it as more of a pleasant surprise when we get a 4 that has synergy with a 5 (Sabretooth, Chavez, etc). 

4. Just like there are inherent “givens” in FPS and fighting games, the same is true for this. I expect rosters bigger/better than mine to place better. Absolutely. 

5.  Choosing to use the same characters over and over is a choice. When I was in the 4* tier, I abandoned my 3s, but I used most of my 4s and tried to find teams for all of them. Now that I’m a 5* player, I no longer use my 4s aside from Grocket and Sabretooth (due to specific synergies with Kitty/Okoye) but try to use as many 5s as I can.

Most of your problems aren’t with PVP proper, but with the length of time it takes to progress (which is an argument I can get behind). 7 clears wrapped around PVE end times. 75 wins for full progression in PVP. These things are extremely time consuming and so people feel locked into using their fastest characters or relying on coordination to lessen the grind (yes, “grind” is a commonly used term we don’t bat an eyelash at sadly). I’ve seen many on Line say that if Thor ever gets nerfed, they will quit on the spot. Just because even with him speeding things up, the game is still a slog.

But much of what you’re asking for is there, and many complaints you have are just how competitive video games work.