Doing Free-to-play wrong

Unknown

I found this interesting video on Youtube about the pitfalls of creating a free-to-play game (Link at the bottom). It's interesting because it makes you think about the transactions that you've made in a game like MPQ. Do any of you feel joy when spending real money on HP for shields and roster slots? I enjoyed dropping some cash on leveling up CMags, but the majority of transactions I'm feeling resentment to do so. I'm very quickly going off this game and it's for a mixture of reasons, but I'd be interested to hear all of you guy's thoughts on what you think D3P are doing right and wrong with MPQ.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Mhz9OXy86a0

kaepamerica7

As a F2P player i feel the devs are doing everything right, i think the prices are ridiculous but that doesn't concern me so as far as gameplay, its still a newer game give it time and be patient. It def needs some fine tuning but it will get there

Unknown

Good video. Taking it into account, I'd say MPQ is slowly changing from the first type to the second type. You have veteran players that managed to never spend a cent into the game because rewards were plenty. Now it feels like you can't compete without shields and have to dish out $10 for a single 3* cover because drops from tokens went from "almost guaranteed" to "single digit chance for featured hero".

The other F2P game I play quite a bit of is Dota 2. I know it's not that fair to compare because Valve has the resources to afford being generous, but I spend money there every once in a while and the only time I felt resentful for wasting money was the first time I got keys to open treasure chests (Dota's equivalent of token) and got two of the same cosmetic item for a hero I never played. Needless to say, I stopped paying for chest keys because I felt it wasn't worth it.

What Valve did? Changed treasure chests and now they:

1.never repeat items until you got all of them. If there are 4 different items, you are guaranteed to get them if you buy 4 chests.

2.give more items. Chests that give weapons now give me two weapons instead of one. Armor chests now give a full set. Even when I'm getting items for heroes I don't like it feels like good value and I know I won't get repeat items of them again. I absolutely don't feel like that towards MPQ at the moment.

3.give a chance to simultaneously get a really rare item. While you are getting the regular items from that chest, there is this one rare item that is never guaranteed, but there's a chance you can hit jackpot.

To translate into a MPQ equivalent, it would be something like a token that would give you one guaranteed cover of one of the featured heroes (something like old LR tokens) and an extra, really small chance of getting a 4* at the same time

Ever since these changes I got 8 armor chests and 1 weapon chest recently and I'm sure I'll keep buying them. Keep in mind they are all cosmetics, not required in any way to play the game, just to look fancy. Also got the Compendium for the big Dota tournament that happens every year. I pretty much paid $10 to watch people play a videogame and I'll get a bunch of cool little items in the process, while feeling like I'm supporting the game I like.

Unknown

I don't think Valve has released any information on how profitable Dota is, but given that it's the most played game on steam, and the size of the prize pool for their upcoming tournament, it has to be like printing money.

They've also got a variety of cosmetic items like different couriers, wards, and announcers as well as armor sets. I don't care too much about the armors, but I do like getting couriers and announcers. They've got a nice variety of things you might want to spend on if one thing doesn't interest you. And none of it impacts gameplay at all. It's the gold standard for F2P as far as I'm concerned, but I don't know how MPQ could benefit from it, there's just not much of a way to show off cosmetics.

Unknown

Didn't watch the video, but I'd like to share my thoughts in any case.

As a "core" gamer, I think f2p is great. Many typical players, especially ones rooted in consoles think f2p is evil and bad. Pay2win is a phrase that typically comes up. Personally, I feel it is too often exaggerated.

I think the cosmetics route is the "best" (in-terms of for the player) form of f2p. While mpq does not follow that route, I think it's relatively fair to the free player. Compare other games where content and characters would be completely locked off unless you pay. Mpq, all characters are obtainable and all events playable. Those with money have advantage, but free players can still find success.

I would agree with you that purchases in this game feel underwhelming. I grew up with ccgs and it's an expensive hobby, but imo more satisfying than mpq tokens. One of the issues is quantity I think. A ccg, you might pull a less rare card, but it has a greater chance of being new and thus more interesting than a duplicate. Mpq is prone of spamming you with dupes.

Consumables like shields, boosts, health packs are the next thing players can buy. To me, these are like drugs that one can develop a reliance on. I don't subscribe to using such things but I don't hate them either. From a business standpoint, they are self sustaining and thus low maintenance. Personally, I would love to see a more tangible version through equips.

I think it's very feasible for mpq to have equip slots and make artifacts like the tesseract for example. For example, do something like give +3% health. Yeah, it's more work where you have to continually create content, but I think it makes for a more fun and deeper game. I think it would also enrich the usage of Marvel lore. It surely must be easier than to churn out than new characters. Make it exclusive through HP purchases and at least for me would make spending more attractive to those that don't subscribe to shields and those who are tired of getting dupes from character tokens.

Unknown

i enjoy buying character upgrades, like covers and stuff, and i'm not hundred percent against shields especially if i'm super invested in an event. But the hero points for boosts feels gross and buying health packs is never fun.

Unknown

omfg I wish D3 would watch this

Unknown

I say they create a "cover bomb" like the money bomb the guy was talking about. That would be awesome. Walk into your alliance chat room and BOOM! You go all Oprah. You get cover! You get cover! You get a cover! LOL

Unknown

Impulse wrote:

I don't think Valve has released any information on how profitable Dota is, but given that it's the most played game on steam, and the size of the prize pool for their upcoming tournament, it has to be like printing money.

They've also got a variety of cosmetic items like different couriers, wards, and announcers as well as armor sets. I don't care too much about the armors, but I do like getting couriers and announcers. They've got a nice variety of things you might want to spend on if one thing doesn't interest you. And none of it impacts gameplay at all. It's the gold standard for F2P as far as I'm concerned, but I don't know how MPQ could benefit from it, there's just not much of a way to show off cosmetics.

What? Not a way to show off cosmetics? You see your opponent's team every fight. Hell, the poses for a lot of characters are exactly the same as others. Patches himself could have simply been a cosmetic change to xforce or something if they wanted.
Don't try and lie to me and tell.me you wouldn't buy the "Dapper Muthaf*kka" outfit for nick fury with the flying snakes background.

Unknown

ihearthawthats wrote:

Didn't watch the video, but I'd like to share my thoughts in any case.

As a "core" gamer, I think f2p is great. Many typical players, especially ones rooted in consoles think f2p is evil and bad. Pay2win is a phrase that typically comes up. Personally, I feel it is too often exaggerated.

I think the cosmetics route is the "best" (in-terms of for the player) form of f2p. While mpq does not follow that route, I think it's relatively fair to the free player. Compare other games where content and characters would be completely locked off unless you pay. Mpq, all characters are obtainable and all events playable. Those with money have advantage, but free players can still find success.

I would agree with you that purchases in this game feel underwhelming. I grew up with ccgs and it's an expensive hobby, but imo more satisfying than mpq tokens. One of the issues is quantity I think. A ccg, you might pull a less rare card, but it has a greater chance of being new and thus more interesting than a duplicate. Mpq is prone of spamming you with dupes.

Consumables like shields, boosts, health packs are the next thing players can buy. To me, these are like drugs that one can develop a reliance on. I don't subscribe to using such things but I don't hate them either. From a business standpoint, they are self sustaining and thus low maintenance. Personally, I would love to see a more tangible version through equips.

I think it's very feasible for mpq to have equip slots and make artifacts like the tesseract for example. For example, do something like give +3% health. Yeah, it's more work where you have to continually create content, but I think it makes for a more fun and deeper game. I think it would also enrich the usage of Marvel lore. It surely must be easier than to churn out than new characters. Make it exclusive through HP purchases and at least for me would make spending more attractive to those that don't subscribe to shields and those who are tired of getting dupes from character tokens.

Every time I play a game with packs I don't understand why they don't use the ccg model that has clearly made money for YEARS. X cards in a pack (let's say 11). You get 7 commons, 3 uncommons, and one rare with slight chance of a super rare instead of the rare.

A game like this could EASILY use something similar. Example pack? 1 stars count as common, as do iso boosts. 2** and hp boosts are uncommon. 3*** are rare 4**** super rare. Heck, they could even make a subset on the 3*** rarity to make characters you want a little harder to get to make up for giving 3*** every pack. Make 2 cover 3*** more common than 3 cover ones...or make certain colors.of each character specifically more rare, or just make newer characters more rare/common depending on the pack. So many options... Anyway, that way, just like a ccg, even when your rare sucks you usually get SOMETHING mildly useful. Be it another useful common or a 2** you jist needed one more cover of. Adding boosts to packs would help this a lot as well.

All I ever assume.is that they don't UAE these methods because they are too fair. While ccg have had go show thier drop rates for years online games haven't been forced to in the same way. As such, **** packs exist and ppl buy them.

Regardless, packs are ALWAYS aimed at newer rather than veteran players. As vets are versed enough in the game's cost analysis to know that packs aren't worth it compared to just paying for the card/cover you need up front unless there are a LOT of things you need. If o was a nee player and willing go drop real money, I would be much more willing to spend 4-6 dollars on a pack that gave me 11 things, even if its only really giving you 1 thing and 10 things you could easily earn for free over time, as opposed to getting a single cover.

Unknown

soenottelling wrote:

Impulse wrote:

I don't think Valve has released any information on how profitable Dota is, but given that it's the most played game on steam, and the size of the prize pool for their upcoming tournament, it has to be like printing money.

They've also got a variety of cosmetic items like different couriers, wards, and announcers as well as armor sets. I don't care too much about the armors, but I do like getting couriers and announcers. They've got a nice variety of things you might want to spend on if one thing doesn't interest you. And none of it impacts gameplay at all. It's the gold standard for F2P as far as I'm concerned, but I don't know how MPQ could benefit from it, there's just not much of a way to show off cosmetics.

What? Not a way to show off cosmetics? You see your opponent's team every fight. Hell, the poses for a lot of characters are exactly the same as others. Patches himself could have simply been a cosmetic change to xforce or something if they wanted.
Don't try and lie to me and tell.me you wouldn't buy the "Dapper Muthaf*kka" outfit for nick fury with the flying snakes background.

IMHO Demiurge kinda shot themselves in the foot when they established that different costumes = different characters. Now it'd be confusing to have a different costume that is just cosmetic while another costume is actually a new enhanced character.

mjh

that video was fantastic. the D3 team should take note and make immediate changes but they won't. The first thing I said when I played this game is "so much potential, if only they valued design" and I continue to say this. Not only because the styling is outdated and interface not completely optimized for retina displays but the experience (which is also design) lacks so much when it's right there for the taking.

C'mon D3, don't think about it or mull it over and have 100 meetings about it. Approach this like a startup, iterate and release these improvements!

Unknown

soenottelling wrote:

Impulse wrote:

I don't think Valve has released any information on how profitable Dota is, but given that it's the most played game on steam, and the size of the prize pool for their upcoming tournament, it has to be like printing money.

They've also got a variety of cosmetic items like different couriers, wards, and announcers as well as armor sets. I don't care too much about the armors, but I do like getting couriers and announcers. They've got a nice variety of things you might want to spend on if one thing doesn't interest you. And none of it impacts gameplay at all. It's the gold standard for F2P as far as I'm concerned, but I don't know how MPQ could benefit from it, there's just not much of a way to show off cosmetics.

What? Not a way to show off cosmetics? You see your opponent's team every fight. Hell, the poses for a lot of characters are exactly the same as others. Patches himself could have simply been a cosmetic change to xforce or something if they wanted.
Don't try and lie to me and tell.me you wouldn't buy the "Dapper Muthaf*kka" outfit for nick fury with the flying snakes background.

I mean, they're there, but kind of tiny. Maybe it's because I mostly play on the mobile, but I have trouble imagining costumes selling like they would in an mmo or moba.

That would be a choice fury outfit though.

atomzed

ihearthawthats wrote:

I think it's very feasible for mpq to have equip slots and make artifacts like the tesseract for example. For example, do something like give +3% health. Yeah, it's more work where you have to continually create content, but I think it makes for a more fun and deeper game. I think it would also enrich the usage of Marvel lore. It surely must be easier than to churn out than new characters. Make it exclusive through HP purchases and at least for me would make spending more attractive to those that don't subscribe to shields and those who are tired of getting dupes from character tokens.

This is an idea that sounds very exciting to me. Equipment slots can be done in the manner similar to the boost slots. You just have a screen that you tap on the equipment and it's effect is added at the start of the game.

I also see potential in having specific items for specific character. Imagine having a pve when you hunt down the hammer goons who stole the mjonir replica (for rag), or capts shield. And after you retrieve, you get to equip on thor or capt.

Imagine the amount of content you can generate. Instead of just collecting covers, you also have additional equipment to collect, that acts like a permanent boost.

Will that be p2w? It depends on how they implement the idea. But I definitely like the contents that it's generated.

Unknown

FoxyMulder wrote:

omfg I wish D3 would watch this

They won't probably undestand it.

I like how it's handled in Marvel Heroes on Steam:
The only stuff You need to buy is more inventory space. But unless You hoard items, You'll be fine with 2-3 of those.

They are making money on cosmetic stuff, basically costumes for heroes. And it's enough for them. And people support the game. And don't feel robbed.

Ideal F2P.

Unknown

Emeryt wrote:

FoxyMulder wrote:

omfg I wish D3 would watch this

They won't probably undestand it.

I like how it's handled in Marvel Heroes on Steam:
The only stuff You need to buy is more inventory space. But unless You hoard items, You'll be fine with 2-3 of those.

They are making money on cosmetic stuff, basically costumes for heroes. And it's enough for them. And people support the game. And don't feel robbed.

Ideal F2P.

Cosmetic is the way to go for F2P game. Just take a look at Dota 2. 15 million dollar just on selling conpendium alone in a week.

But i guess it will be hard for MPQ to add cosmetic in the game since you dont even look at the character much when you are playing.

Unknown

Justdangit wrote:

Emeryt wrote:

FoxyMulder wrote:

omfg I wish D3 would watch this

They won't probably undestand it.

I like how it's handled in Marvel Heroes on Steam:
The only stuff You need to buy is more inventory space. But unless You hoard items, You'll be fine with 2-3 of those.

They are making money on cosmetic stuff, basically costumes for heroes. And it's enough for them. And people support the game. And don't feel robbed.

Ideal F2P.

Cosmetic is the way to go for F2P game. Just take a look at Dota 2. 15 million dollar just on selling conpendium alone in a week.

But i guess it will be hard for MPQ to add cosmetic in the game since you dont even look at the character much when you are playing.

Cosmetic changes:
Different tiles
Different crit tiles
Various covers/ animations/ arts
Various main window/ opening window

Unknown

I'm surprised many of you are suggesting cosmetic upgrades. I think if they implemented that then everyone would be **** on the forums about how lame it is. I think D3P need to sort out the gameplay problems. Right now I'm feeling like if I grind for ages and pay HP for a shield then I'll get two covers for a new character. That character will sit there and be utterly useless until I get another 7 covers, which could take months because next week a new character will come out and I'll be grinding for that, paying for a shield and paying for a new roster slot. I end up with 10 characters that are all useless and I'm not feeling any progression. If I could pay to level up that character for £7 ($14) then I would, but I'm not paying £40 to level up one character. This game is more fun at the early stages when you're feeling constant progression with your 1* characters.

MarvelMan

dreadlington wrote:

I'm surprised many of you are suggesting cosmetic upgrades. I think if they implemented that then everyone would be **** on the forums about how lame it is. I think D3P need to sort out the gameplay problems. Right now I'm feeling like if I grind for ages and pay HP for a shield then I'll get two covers for a new character. That character will sit there and be utterly useless until I get another 7 covers, which could take months because next week a new character will come out and I'll be grinding for that, paying for a shield and paying for a new roster slot. I end up with 10 characters that are all useless and I'm not feeling any progression. If I could pay to level up that character for £7 ($14) then I would, but I'm not paying £40 to level up one character. This game is more fun at the early stages when you're feeling constant progression with your 1* characters.

Definitely true that they need to figure out the gameplay, but my take is that a lot of the issues with the current style are the result of monetization so if they figure out alternative sources of income, they can get back to the way the game was about 2 months ago (pre-Alliance/Season/reward NERFs).

As you point out, they have done a great job with the hook of getting new players....but it comes at the expense of the mid/high players, and its not nearly well enough balanced and doesnt seem to keep people engaged. Once you start getting 3* covers you are already falling into the abyss where HP spending severely outpaces earning, and that spending gets you less and less and less.

I would like to see them reduce the cost scaling of new roster slots (since they keep releasing more and more chars), add cosmetics (no more than one per char) and work to reduce the importance of alliances and eliminate the season. As much as I like my alliance mates, that was a major tipping point for me where the game started going downhill as my level of play impacted others, and the Season just accelerated it.

LordWill

I just watched the video, excellent.

I made this very same point in one of my threads about giving money to a girl scout or a mugger. lol

Point well made!