Fix a 5* -- Episode 6: Hulk Sulks

jackstar0

For hitting this half-dozen point, I figured it was time to address one of the elephants in the room...

Also, this might be my last one because work suddenly got much busier this week and I am not sure I should even be doing this...

5* The Hulk (Bruce Banner)

Quick Recap:

Blue - If there are less than 7 green tiles on the board, then damage the target and turn two tiles green! The tiles can even be enemy A/P/S tiles! Wow!

Black - Spend 11 AP to make attack tiles for you... and if you've still got allies in the fight, also against you.

Purple - When you've got 6 or more Green AP, then a countdown starts. When time is up, it's Hulk time!

As Hulk:
Green - Spend 13 AP to do AOE damage

Red - Performs an auto-match at the start of the turn which DOES NOT generate AP. When Hulk is KO'd bring back Bruce how you left him and start the cycle over again.

My Suggestions:

Lambasted. Loathed. Despised. This version of The Hulk is reviled. And pretty deservedly so. Firstly, you've got this 5* Hulk who transforms and that whole idea is pretty awesome. But does he really get stronger? Nope. At the base level, when he's in Hulk form, his match damage should be increased at least 20% (though I think it should actually be double). That aside, let's break down the powers as I would adjust them.

Blue - The premise is solid. He gets madder and shakes things up. What doesn't make sense is the board dictating things. Hulk should make a couple green every turn regardless. Maybe he only damages the target when there's under 7 and that's not awful, but he should be making a couple green tiles every turn. He's the Hulk!

Black - 11 AP is a lot with the pretty hefty drawback. I get the intention, but this should be cheaper if it's going to be here at all. I'd be okay with another passive where he's sciencing things to affect the board, or a tile-changer like Kamala to make more green. But since him taking damage doesn't have any triggering affects on his transformation, why is he hurting himself/his team? It's a team game, so making someone play like a loner and a rebel is questionable, especially at this level, Dottie.

Purple - Honestly, it's almost fine. Doesn't need to be fortified, but here's what I do want. When the transformation happens, there should be a HUGE board shake. That countdown goes off and like half the board should be destroyed. THAT would be Hulk.

Switching to Hulk mode...

Green - 13 AP and he's not actually generating anymore? Why? WHY is it not super easy for the HULK TO SMASH?! And why not a bigger amount of damage for that much AP? He's getting clowned by so many other characters.

Red - Why can't it generate AP? It's already going to ruin most of the good match options you would have picked and not make 70% of the match-5s that could be made... so why the unhelpful limitation there? It's one (typically unhelpful) move, let us have the AP.

Purple is nothing in this mode, but I suggest this: Hulk should be able to transform AGAIN into smart Hulk! This would complete his transformation and he would take damage and be KO'd like normal (rather than reverting again), but give him a whole new set of awesome smashing and sciencing powers!

Why is so derided? Because he just doesn't smash and they named him Hulk.

Of all the 5*s, I think everyone would be delighted to see a re-work of this character. Maybe not using my ideas, but certainly something that allows for smashing to happen.

Heck, maybe he should start as Hulk and then get beaten down to a weak Banner who then has to cobble the right AP together to switch back to Hulk... there are so many options for this character and what we got isn't good enough.



How would you help fix 5* Hulk?


Previous Episodes:
Black Widow
Jean Grey
Green Goblin
Wasp
Cap (Civil War)

Dormammu

I'm not sure why the developers think the Hulk needs to be so detrimental to his own teammates, but this certainly is the case with all of the Banner-Hulks in MPQ. They're all risky. The 3-star (aside from being broken) damages allies on red, the 4-star can leave crits on the board for your enemy to use, and the 5-star version in question makes enemy strike tiles and likes to randomly match away your stuff.

I look at a design like the new Hawkeye-Ronin, who passively makes strike tiles on red matches, and I wonder how in the world they can give a nobody like him such a cool power, but then treat the Hulk (one of comicdom's most beloved characters) so horribly and give him such a tinykitty ability like his black? (11 AP? Are you kidding?) Drop the cost and drop the enemy strikes.

Also, similar to the Ronin mechanic, why can't the Hulk passively make strike or attack tiles when the opponent makes certain-color matches? This would reflect him getting madder and stronger as his puny foes attack him. That should be his red passive in Hulk-mode.

Then drop the cost on his green AoE. 13 AP? For crying out loud, anyone with powers as expensive as this guy is immediate rubbish. There are too many characters out there working passives on turn 1 that will annihilate you long before you get 13 AP of any color.

tiomono

Purple = still a passive. Think bishop as a 5*. You hit banner he gets upset. You keep hitting him he explodes. Once you damage banner enough he instantly hulks out smashing the board like me hulk.

Blue = passive He generates 2 green every turn until a certain amount is on the board. 

Black = 10 cost targeted tile swap. He is smart let him manipulate the board.

Hulk mode 
Red = only change is you keep what he matches.

Green= 9 is still fine but he needs damage comparable to thors.

He keeps the blue passive in hulk mode. Keep the green flowing.

Zeofar

There might be a mistake in the OP, I think that Black costs 7 AP and Green costs 9 AP. Or do the costs scale up? I don't think I've actually seen a fully covered Hulk. Nevermind, Jackstar confirmed he got those costs ingame. Definitely too expensive for the effects!

Anyway, I've given some thought to this one before and this is the major change I'd like to see: when Hulk transforms, he destroys all green tiles on the board AND gains AP for them (could do damage too, but that's less important). Gives hulking out the potential to be appropriately dramatic and dangerous and feels like SW or Cho's countdowns scaled up to 5-star space. The AP threshold or countdown length might need tuning after that, but I'd definitely start with this.

Black - Not sure why it's creating enemy specials, but I guess we can run with that. Perhaps give yourself Strikes instead so you actually feel like you're getting the better side of the bargain. Would synergize better with Hulk's auto-matches as well.

There could be some QoL and damage tuning beyond these, but that's the main deal for me. Making the Hulk matches generate AP is an idea I've seen a lot but I'm not convinced; Given the Banner-to-Hulk story the character is pushing, I'd rather that power be concentrated on an epic transformation (and incentivize preventing it, as an opponent) than on generating value afterward. It'd be a cool pairing with Cable (they really do seem made for each other), and Thanos, Okoye, or Gambit as a third might actually make a decent team.

jackstar0

Zeofar said:

There might be a mistake in the OP, I think that Black costs 7 AP and Green costs 9 AP. Or do the costs scale up? I don't think I've actually seen a fully covered Hulk.

Anyway, I've given some thought to this one before and this is the major change I'd like to see: when Hulk transforms, he destroys all green tiles on the board AND gains AP for them (could do damage too, but that's less important). Gives hulking out the potential to be appropriately dramatic and dangerous and feels like SW or Cho's countdowns scaled up to 5-star space. The AP threshold or countdown length might need tuning after that, but I'd definitely start with this.

Black - Not sure why it's creating enemy specials, but I guess we can run with that. Perhaps give yourself Strikes instead so you actually feel like you're getting the better side of the bargain. Would synergize better with Hulk's auto-matches as well.

There could be some QoL and damage tuning beyond these, but that's the main deal for me. Making the Hulk matches generate AP is an idea I've seen a lot but I'm not convinced; Given the Banner-to-Hulk story the character is pushing, I'd rather that power be concentrated on an epic transformation (and incentivize preventing it, as an opponent) than on generating value afterward. It'd be a cool pairing with Cable (they really do seem made for each other), and Thanos, Okoye, or Gambit as a third might actually make a decent team.

I wasn't sure of the costs, so I actually played him and checked the costs mid-match to confirm...

That's what they said! It's entirely possible that they do change based on how he's built...but the green is hard to check repeatedly.

tiomono

jackstar0 said:

Zeofar said:

There might be a mistake in the OP, I think that Black costs 7 AP and Green costs 9 AP. Or do the costs scale up? I don't think I've actually seen a fully covered Hulk.

Anyway, I've given some thought to this one before and this is the major change I'd like to see: when Hulk transforms, he destroys all green tiles on the board AND gains AP for them (could do damage too, but that's less important). Gives hulking out the potential to be appropriately dramatic and dangerous and feels like SW or Cho's countdowns scaled up to 5-star space. The AP threshold or countdown length might need tuning after that, but I'd definitely start with this.

Black - Not sure why it's creating enemy specials, but I guess we can run with that. Perhaps give yourself Strikes instead so you actually feel like you're getting the better side of the bargain. Would synergize better with Hulk's auto-matches as well.

There could be some QoL and damage tuning beyond these, but that's the main deal for me. Making the Hulk matches generate AP is an idea I've seen a lot but I'm not convinced; Given the Banner-to-Hulk story the character is pushing, I'd rather that power be concentrated on an epic transformation (and incentivize preventing it, as an opponent) than on generating value afterward. It'd be a cool pairing with Cable (they really do seem made for each other), and Thanos, Okoye, or Gambit as a third might actually make a decent team.

I wasn't sure of the costs, so I actually played him and checked the costs mid-match to confirm...

That's what they said! It's entirely possible that they do change based on how he's built...but the green is hard to check repeatedly.

Black costs 7 at 5 covers. I actually run banner with gritty in simulator often. I actually like his little damage pop when there is less than 7 green on the board. The green aoe as hulk is at 9.

Gold_Dragon

My changes

Smartest Guy In The Room - swap the location of any 2 tiles on the board. Create 2 attack tiles for the opponent afterwards. 

The Other Guy - When Hulk transforms he takes over. A 5-turn countdown generates. He makes a free match that generates AP. He returns to Banner if the CD gets to 0 or is destroyed. If Hulk takes damage while the CD is on the field, the CD returns to 5. If the CD is matched, destroy all green tiles on the field and deal damage for each. 

jackstar0

So another of his flaws would seem to be inaccurate representation of his AP costs in-game... yeesh!

Straycat

I like that match damage increase idea. I think he should tank all colors when he transforms, increasing the damage he does and keeping him in front. The few times I use him (still unchamped) I hate how he goes from tanking blue and black to tanking nothing. 

Malcrof

Hulk gets stronger the more angry he gets, when he transforms, he should get stronger the more damage he takes before turning back into bruce.  My idea, when transformed, match damage gets exponentially higher until he turns back, the auto swap is good, make it do damage, no active powers as hulk , BUT when hulk takes final damage to turn back into banner, a nice auto aoe as he lashes out a final time. 

TPF Alexis

Malcrof said:

Hulk gets stronger the more angry he gets, when he transforms, he should get stronger the more damage he takes before turning back into bruce.  My idea, when transformed, match damage gets exponentially higher until he turns back, the auto swap is good, make it do damage, no active powers as hulk , BUT when hulk takes final damage to turn back into banner, a nice auto aoe as he lashes out a final time. 

I was thinking about something like this for 3* Hulk a while ago. You could make it percentage based, so if when he's lost 25% of his health, he does 25% more base match damage, lost 75% health, he does 75% more. Stick a multiplier in there with more covers, so when fully covered, he'd do, say, +150% base match damage when he's lost 25% of his health, and +300% when he's lost 75%. The exact numbers would need some playtesting, but I think the basic concept is sound.

sambrookjm

TPF Alexis said:

Malcrof said:

Hulk gets stronger the more angry he gets, when he transforms, he should get stronger the more damage he takes before turning back into bruce.  My idea, when transformed, match damage gets exponentially higher until he turns back, the auto swap is good, make it do damage, no active powers as hulk , BUT when hulk takes final damage to turn back into banner, a nice auto aoe as he lashes out a final time. 

I was thinking about something like this for 3* Hulk a while ago. You could make it percentage based, so if when he's lost 25% of his health, he does 25% more base match damage, lost 75% health, he does 75% more. Stick a multiplier in there with more covers, so when fully covered, he'd do, say, +150% base match damage when he's lost 25% of his health, and +300% when he's lost 75%. The exact numbers would need some playtesting, but I think the basic concept is sound.

And odds are good that this ability would work just like Vision's Heavy Density, where he would only do the extra damage if he tanked the color normally.  I like the idea, but the implementation that would need to be done correctly.

TPF Alexis

sambrookjm said:

TPF Alexis said:

Malcrof said:

Hulk gets stronger the more angry he gets, when he transforms, he should get stronger the more damage he takes before turning back into bruce.  My idea, when transformed, match damage gets exponentially higher until he turns back, the auto swap is good, make it do damage, no active powers as hulk , BUT when hulk takes final damage to turn back into banner, a nice auto aoe as he lashes out a final time. 

I was thinking about something like this for 3* Hulk a while ago. You could make it percentage based, so if when he's lost 25% of his health, he does 25% more base match damage, lost 75% health, he does 75% more. Stick a multiplier in there with more covers, so when fully covered, he'd do, say, +150% base match damage when he's lost 25% of his health, and +300% when he's lost 75%. The exact numbers would need some playtesting, but I think the basic concept is sound.

And odds are good that this ability would work just like Vision's Heavy Density, where he would only do the extra damage if he tanked the color normally.  I like the idea, but the implementation that would need to be done correctly.

That's why I specified "base match damage", borrowing the templating from Ghost.