Old subject, but I’d really like an answer (Feeder Discussion)

Carnifexx
Carnifexx Posts: 110 Tile Toppler
edited April 2019 in MPQ General Discussion
Devs, are feeders really a thing of the past? I’m not hearing/ seeing anything in regards to this subject. As a players nearing 2,000 this is bugging me towards leaving the game. I realize different things may bug others, dilution, costumes, supports, face changes, etc... but feeders for all 5 stars is my big bugaboo. I’m so tired of new 5s being introduced. There needs to be a feeder introduced for EVERY new 5star or else stop introducing new characters until you can. And yes I understand fellow forumites that is how they make money, but it’s becoming a method of making players considering leaving. 

Mod Note: Clarified Title

Comments

  • DyingLegend
    DyingLegend Posts: 1,203 Chairperson of the Boards
    All 5 stars should have feeders by now. Its disheartening that they don't, as it's been the biggest request. 

    Feels like the devs have a path they are following irregardless of player feedback. 
  • marshall
    marshall Posts: 179 Tile Toppler
    Even with feeders, it's a nigh impossible project. I'm a day 1400ish player that migrate to 5* land with Gambit. The 5*s I don't have covered are 8 covers and up, which is good, but it's unlikely that'll finish them in the next 2 years.

    We should have multiple feeders, 2 per character at least, or some other new way of acquiring them.
  • JHawkInc
    JHawkInc Posts: 2,604 Chairperson of the Boards
    I feel like you're making a vague ultimatum that isn't super justified.

    First, it makes sense to save some of these for Endgame. And they absolutely aren't going to show their hand early this close to the film's release.

    Second, it makes absolutely zero business sense to focus on a quality of life change that a few people will quit over instead of new content that brings revenue. They will never ever ever ever ever focus on feeders over new characters. It's insane, and doing so would make a handful of people happy while harming the game for literally everyone else.

    I get it. It's a bummer that the feeders have come so slow, and that they've petered out recently. I hope they get through at least one per character, and would prefer more than one per 5* (and with different orders to the powers, as well, so the covers offered at levels 320 and 360 by current 4*s would be offered at lower levels by the second/third 4*s down the road). I'd really like to see feeders added as part of the new character rotation. Have a new 5* release, release store for the weekend, two weeks after the store closes they rotate into Latest legends. Third 5* after that rotates into Latest the "new" character will rotate to classic. It'd be cool to guarantee a first feeder when the NEXT 5* rotates into Classics. So new characters have an exclusivity window that lasts until after they are added to Classics, so there's a reason for players to chase them while they're new, but there's also a guarantee of feeder covers coming after a set time. It'd be nice to know if you miss the final cover or two while a 5* is Latest that you'd get a feeder in a few weeks that could finish them off.

    It's a bummer we can't be at that point already. But I don't think this is a hill to die on, either. The people willing to quit over a lack of feeders (it's only been 3 months since our last one, and it's literally the only significant pause we've had in feeders since they were first introduced) aren't the ones keeping the game afloat, so it doesn't make sense for devs to prioritize this. I hope they can address it sooner rather than later, but there's something to be said for having reasonable expectations about the matter.
  • Tony_Foot
    Tony_Foot Posts: 1,790 Chairperson of the Boards
    JHawkInc said:
    but there's something to be said for having reasonable expectations about the matter.
    Exactly, they gave a bit and created expectation. The worst thing they could do is double feeders because the cycle would start all over again.

    Feeders are a bonus, anyone nearing the level of 4* required to get multiple covers from them probably doesn't really need them. They are a nice pull free way to get a 5* for essentials if you are not interested in a character but other than that anyone threatening to quit over feeders is probably going to quit anyway.

    I'm nearing day 1500 and have only about 9 or 10 5* champed. Even dumping dual feeders today would do so little for my roster it wouldn't be worth quitting over.

    It's such a small area of the game that does need rework, I personally would rather they concentrated on other areas.
  • bluewolf
    bluewolf Posts: 5,733 Chairperson of the Boards
    Arguably and probably, feeders were introduced to help with dilution of 5's in the Classic store.  It's not a new problem and feeders nicely created a way to help people get at least one cover for node access.  Etc.  It is demoralizing to look at the odds of pulling Classics and covering a 5 that way.  With 29 Classic 5's it could be 203 pulls before you got one of each 5 (maybe more, thanks RNG) or 4,060 CP.

    It's been 13 weeks now since we got one, if we get one next week it'll be 14 weeks.

    In that same exact span of time we have seen a number of short term popup 5* stores.  Often next to those stores you will see a costume bundle or CP sale or something that makes spending some money attractive while offering the chance to chase covers for those same diluted 5's.  So popups are another way to help with dilution, except they aren't giving away covers to you.  They also offer 10X better odds that you'll pull one of those 3 characters vs trying to pull them from Classics.

    Which one makes more money for the developers?   It's a business, after all.  Maybe the change will make sense in retrospect for a different reason, but right now the most obvious explanation for the action we are seeing is to give away less stuff and sell you more stuff instead.

    Hopefully we will see a feeder again soon, but it seems likely that they will be small in number and infrequent based on how 2019 has started.
  • jp1
    jp1 Posts: 1,081 Chairperson of the Boards
    The five star game is broken. The transition is the real problem, once you have a few fives champed (I have six for reference), 99.9% of the rest of your roster is useless except for required nodes. A roster full of champs and max champs and you use maybe 5 of them regularly, and that’s generous. 

    Yes, feeders are a bonus. I also agree they won’t fix the dilution problem by themselves. It certainly would be an indication that the game team cares a little about the long game though...which would go a long way for some folks.
  • GrimSkald
    GrimSkald Posts: 2,580 Chairperson of the Boards
    I made up this spreadsheet about a month ago to track a number of things and to prove/disprove some common conceptions regarding the characters they chose.  The feeders fell into a very rough pattern of 1/month for a while, but they appear to have switched pretty much completely to "related to a special event" late last year.  We are currently in the largest gap of about 90 days.

    If they don't release feeders alongside Infinity War we can assume they've made a substantial change to how they're doing them, but I expect they'll do at least one, probably more...
  • Yepyep
    Yepyep Posts: 952 Critical Contributor
    ThaRoadWarrior said:
    ...
    It's not like any 1 or any 2 5s automatically make your life better, and in fact, they will probably make it worse. Which is a big problem given the timescales involved in transitioning.
    Exactly. Either the system is broken or the 5* tier exists for the pleasure of (relatively) big spenders, i.e. as a kind of gratuity analogous to an Amex Centurion card or the like. 
  • bluewolf
    bluewolf Posts: 5,733 Chairperson of the Boards
    I think all players want 5* feeders in general.  Sometimes we like to think about how we might prioritize developer resources, and in a case where it was a choice 4/5* feeders, more 4 feeders would create a better game environment for a lot of players who are entering the vast tier and can't get anywhere thanks to dilution.  

    Of course, the 4* feeders haven't been touched in 2+ years?  and we don't know what if any plans there are for more 5* feeders.

    The fact is that the covers are part of the economy as much as anything else.  They have their own economy, in fact.  Using lower tier covers to get higher tier covers feels really good for players but hurts the game's attempt to make you strongly desire those higher tier covers by scratching that itch a little.

    So every feeder is a gift to players at the developers' expense.  They have to weigh how much that feeder makes you happy and playing, and maybe spending resources to build on those covers you got (investing in the playerbase), vs giving you something for free that you want a lot (high tier covers), which makes you happy and less stressed about your progress, so spending likelihood drops (giving away potential revenue).

    Lately it seems like the answer to our questions and problems is to offer us more things to buy.  Which makes sense from a profit and revenue point of view.  But, stabilizing the high end playerbase should be a big concern to the devs right now.  Instead it seems like they are just trying to find more ways to sell them stuff.
  • wymtime
    wymtime Posts: 3,758 Chairperson of the Boards
    The fact that they started making 5* feeders and have now stopped is what is disappointing.  If this was a money issue where players were getting too many free 5* covers on release it should not be stop feeders when we release a 5* but add the feeder when they leave latest, or after the next new 5* comes out.  The fact of the matter is giving a small portion of the population extra covers is not going to kill the game.  We have gotten to the point where we could have 2 feeders for every 5*.  In classic legendaries there are so many 5* it would take players way to long to transition to 5* land using classic tokens.  

    I think the reality is time and priority for the dev team.  They focus on new characters 1st, bugs and fixes, new supports, PVE events, and support circuit events.  So feeders have gotten pushed back as an extremely low priority and is something they know they need to do, but keep pushing it off as a future project.  
  • ThaRoadWarrior
    ThaRoadWarrior Posts: 9,388 Chairperson of the Boards
    All the arguments about feeders giving away too many free covers seem bogus to me - if that were the case, you'd just attach all feeders to newish release 4* characters so that everyone is starting at the same baseline. The haves can still just set that new 4* as their BH when busting hoards, the have-nots would just know they'll see that character who just left eventually for node access, or in the case of Cable (and probably Kingpin) on my roster, get finished off to champable (eventually).
  • bluewolf
    bluewolf Posts: 5,733 Chairperson of the Boards
    Look at the War of the Realms store.  Someone sat down for a while and built that.  Put the art together, made the text, put the Thor image on the button, built the database that it is pulling from, tested it to make sure you don't get 5 Thors when you open one or whatever.

    It is work to make each and every store.  Some work is involved.  So the developer devoted resources and time to make it.  Now, maybe that work was not done by the person who would update the rewards table for a feeder.  But the team is small so it's not unlikely.

    Not everything they are working on is content to be consumed or chased.  A lot of it is stores to be interacted with.
  • randomhero1090
    randomhero1090 Posts: 396 Mover and Shaker
    @Brigby

    This question has been asked a lot lately.  Do we have any official updates on 5* feeders?
  • jp1
    jp1 Posts: 1,081 Chairperson of the Boards
    bluewolf said:
    Look at the War of the Realms store.  Someone sat down for a while and built that.  Put the art together, made the text, put the Thor image on the button, built the database that it is pulling from, tested it to make sure you don't get 5 Thors when you open one or whatever.

    It is work to make each and every store.  Some work is involved.  So the developer devoted resources and time to make it.  Now, maybe that work was not done by the person who would update the rewards table for a feeder.  But the team is small so it's not unlikely.

    Not everything they are working on is content to be consumed or chased.  A lot of it is stores to be interacted with.
    I don’t know about this argument. Inevitably when someone makes an argument for the perceived betterment of the game economy, people point out how well they are doing financially...they must have it figured out if that’s the case. 

    However, they can’t be a Goliath of financial success and your next door indie developer at the same time. It must be nice to be able to give the impression as such though. 

    I’m sure they have their tasks assigned to them much the same as any other company and the focus is on increasing revenue. I don’t think it would be an insurmountable obstacle to add feeders and open a store which surely has a template to build from at this point. I just think feeders don’t drive direct revenue and that seems to be the driving force more and more often. 

    Another way of approaching things is from a retention standpoint by way of quality of life upgrades. We haven’t seen a lot of those lately. An argument could be made that this contributes to making the game stale and overall dissatisfaction among long term players. Watching them leave with greater frequency should be of some concern for the long term health of the game economy if their goals are to stick around for the long haul.

    It certainly feels to me like a short term cash grab has started taking priority. That’s just my opinion though and I certainly could be wrong since I am not privy to any inside information.
  • ThaRoadWarrior
    ThaRoadWarrior Posts: 9,388 Chairperson of the Boards
    Unless we know what KPIs they are monitoring, we'll never really know what is driving the tasking. At the end of the day, revenue is the name of the game, but if you care more at any given moment for instance about daily installs, daily active users, etc, (and you surely give weight to all those buckets of numbers in some fashion), you'll almost certainly make different choices.
  • JSP869
    JSP869 Posts: 822 Critical Contributor
    I proposed overhauling the feeder system, all the way down to the 2* Champion rewards. Full post is here: https://forums.d3go.com/discussion/78033/unbalanced-feeder-system

    TLDR - Every 2* should feed three 3*s with three covers each, while every 3* should feed at least one if not two 4*s, and they should get updated as necessary as new 4*s are released.

    I did not cover revamping 4*s to give 5* covers, but if my proposal was adopted I expect veteran players would start getting a lot more 4* covers which would result in more 4* Champions, more CP and LTs, and that would translate into 5* covers, eventually.

    I also did not even mention revamping the 1*s so they can be Championed to also give out Rewards including Standard Tokens and 2* covers, but no HP, CP, or Elite or Heroic Tokens.

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