Ideas to inject some fun into the 5* tier

theomen

Us MPQ players are in a bit of an odd situation; in a game that can't be completed, 5* characters are (or should be) the endgame for most players, however many players actively avoid moving to the 5* tier.

This is often because players don't have the meta team and want to avoid their scores dropping due to tougher matches, or simply because they enjoy the greater variety of the 4* tier.

This makes the 5* tier sound less fun than the 4*, when it should be the most exciting, most fun tier to play!

I started this thread to generate ideas to make the 5* tier more diverse and more exciting to play, here are mine:

Older 5*s:

Surfer, Phoenix, Goblin, Black Bolt, BSSM, Strange, Widow, OML, Cap, IM46

Pretty simple, just up the stats and health on these to make them more competitive. OML could even be restored to his former glory. 

Seriously under powered 5*s:

Banner, Wasp

Cool concepts but near complete reworks needed to make them competitive (and therefore more enjoyable). Wasp should be quicker (as is her character) and 'Call the Swarm' should be like death by thousand cuts. As for Banner, he should unleash serious carnage once transformed to Hulk, so much that's it's genuinely scary for the other team.

Slight tweaks:

Captain Marvel, Loki, IWCAP, Doom

Captain Marvel and Loki need the numbers dropped on their repeaters and CM could do with fortification.

IWCAP and Doom could do with ability cost drops for 'On Your Feet Soldier' and 'Brave New World'.

Power Down:

Thor and Kitty

There will always have to be two or three 'best' characters, but if the goal is to make the tier more balanced and fun, I think these two could be powered down a touch. Thor is pretty simple, make his passive kick in if he is below 50% health AND takes damage (sorta like Rhulk). Kitty needs slowing down with Grocket so make the number of special tiles needed for her buff to activate higher.

Don't touch with a ten foot pole:

Gambit.

Gambit's AP generation made him incredibly dominate (similar to, but much worse than Thor), however now he seems under powered. He has been discussed ad infinitum and I think he's probably best left until the rest of the tier is more balanced. 

Those are all my ideas. I know there are other characters I haven't touched on, but hopefully someone else will have a bright idea for them. 

Enjoy!

'These characters may be unbalanced, dangerous even, but I believe with the right push, they can be exactly what we need.' - Nick Fury

CT1888

I wouldn't actually change Kitty, instead I'd change Grocket - change it so that they make 4 strike tiles at the current higher value, unless you have another Guardian along, at which point they create 7. 

sambrookjm

CT1888 said:

I wouldn't actually change Kitty, instead I'd change Grocket - change it so that they make 4 strike tiles at the current higher value, unless you have another Guardian along, at which point they create 7. 

Yeah...Grocket is the real power behind the throne.  In 4-star realm, it's Grocket + Gamora that's an issue.

Since Repeater tiles seem to be pushed (for better or worse), why not make Grocket's ability to make one strike tile at the start of the match, and then have a repeater tile (fortified at higher levels, if you'd like) create a new strike tile every X turns.

DAZ0273

If the goal is encouraging more players into 5* play then unfortunately as neat as these ideas are I don’t think they are going to help. If the goal is to make existing 5* players have more fun then fair enough, go nuts.

One of the problems with buffing old 5* is that it will not shake up things all that much in terms of what players can dominate, it will just increase the gap between the “haves” and “have nots” (unless you also make some way to obtain those 5* characters more prevalent).  If I’m thinking of moving to the 5* tier then I would find it even less appealing if the meta is now six 5* characters that are out of reach via dilution vs just 2 or 3. That isn’t to say that you can’t buff or re-balance 5* characters, just that the only way you could do it in any sort of effective manner to encourage migration from 4* players would be by using data to find out the Non Meta 5* with the widest player distribution. Then the most players get to benefit. Otherwise, 5* players are just "Hey thanks for the buff" as they return to dominating all areas of the game.

Of course 5* players who have those characters will no doubt have a wildly differing opinion and probably be pro-buff but then that is another matter altogether.

theomen

DAZ0273 said:

If the goal is encouraging more players into 5* play then unfortunately as neat as these ideas are I don’t think they are going to help. If the goal is to make existing 5* players have more fun then fair enough, go nuts.

One of the problems with buffing old 5* is that it will not shake up things all that much in terms of what players can dominate, it will just increase the gap between the “haves” and “have nots” (unless you also make some way to obtain those 5* characters more prevalent).  If I’m thinking of moving to the 5* tier then I would find it even less appealing if the meta is now six 5* characters that are out of reach via dilution vs just 2 or 3. That isn’t to say that you can’t buff or re-balance 5* characters, just that the only way you could do it in any sort of effective manner to encourage migration from 4* players would be by using data to find out the Non Meta 5* with the widest player distribution. Then the most players get to benefit. Otherwise, 5* players are just "Hey thanks for the buff" as they return to dominating all areas of the game.

Of course 5* players who have those characters will no doubt have a wildly differing opinion and probably be pro-buff but then that is another matter altogether.

Well, the goal is to make the 5* more diverse and fun. My thought was that, if D3 did this, more 4* players would want to transition. However you raise a good point Daz, if 4* players can't get their hands on the classic legends then it is still no fun.

D3 have done things to address this; feeders have helped greatly with covering 5*s, as has the saved cover system, but more is needed to make classic legends easier to acquire if rebalances are going to have any effect on the 5* tier. I for one like the new popup legends stores and I would want more of those. My idea would be to split the classics into classics 1 and classics 2, with half the classic characters in each. This would instantly half dilution. D3 could also consider dropping the classic price to 15CP.

Polares

Devs MUST go back to buffing 5s, ASAP. Specially the newly released and almost useless like Carol and KP. Doom just needs a small buff to his yellow to be useful (his yellow should 7 or 6AP).

It is also time to have featured 5s EVERYWHERE, so there is an actual incentive to use those old 5s for something.

bluewolf

Polares said:

Devs MUST go back to buffing 5s, ASAP. Specially the newly released and almost useless like Carol and KP. Doom just needs a small buff to his yellow to be useful (his yellow should 7 or 6AP).

It is also time to have featured 5s EVERYWHERE, so there is an actual incentive to use those old 5s for something.

If there is an "or else I will quit" implied here, you should probably save a lot of time and quit now.

I wish I had the smallest bit of confidence that the devs will take on buffing characters in any significant fashion.

Meanwhile they are probably hard at work making some new costumes to sell you.

Malcrof

Moved to Suggestions

DAZ0273

Another interesting thread condemned to death...

JHawkInc

I thought we were past the days of heavy-handed moderation actively making the forums a worse place. What gives?

I agree that it would be nice to make "old 5's" more valuable beyond "will be featured as Essential once a year or two." I don't really have any suggestions beyond doing what the new Captain Marvel event did, and making nodes that have those characters featured. You get a loaner, but you benefit from having your own (that should theoretically be better than the loaner).

Another idea I've had that would help the 5* tier a little (but is targeted at the 4* tier for 5* players) is to bring back Heroics, allow a limited number of 5's, and then boost all the 1-4 star characters up a tier. So basically, you only get a limited selection of characters (like old heroics), but you play them at a "Heroic" level, so your 4's will be elevated to be equal to your 5's. So you could theme groupings, and run teams like Phoenix with Cyclops or Cable with XFDP or Bolt with Medusa, and the tier difference wouldn't matter because the 4's would be boosted. It doesn't make 5's irrelevant like the old Heroics, and it means each new 5* champ is another Heroic tool (just like any other champ would have been in the old Heroics). AND it increases variety in event rotation. And it gives some relevance to your roster once you reach the 5* tier, as you'll almost certainly have more 4's to pick from. Just tweak the difficulty so the boosts don't steamroll the event (but also so it isn't a slog to be stuck with a "bad" team due to a growing roster, shoot for somewhere in the middle).

(in a perfect world that might be an option, limited roster to artificially increase difficulty, but in turn you get better rewards, but modifying and bringing back the Heroic events is the next best thing I can think of, personally)

ThaRoadWarrior

So many of these 5s are weaksauce because they are tied to repeaters. I think you could change nothing, and just bring in a character with the Flaptain/Coulson-like ability to decrement them either on-demand or when matching some color, and instantly Gambit is back, Danver5 may or may not show up, Kingpin, Loki, Gho5t Rider....there are loads of characters who would be saved by that.

You could save Ghost Rider by having Hell Ride work with Wakanda Forever too - it does triple damage per tile destroyed, i feel like that's a clear distinction from similar powers that just destroy tiles for base damage lol.

A character like that could play down with P4nther, Frost, Nebula, Reed, probably some others...that's the perfect "useful at 1 cover" power we're missing for loads of interesting-but-slow characters that currently exist. It doesn't save Banner or Wa5p though.

DAZ0273

I was also thinking along the lines of a variation on Heroics. The recent Thor PvP seemed to go down well with some of the community as 5* Thor was locked out and there was a shake-up in teams. I would guess the next Rocket & Groot 3* PvP will be eagerly awaited by some for similar reasons.

ThaRoadWarrior

It's true. I've taken to just sacrificing my un-leveled God Emperor Doom on turn 1 to clear out the strikes. Kitty is nothing without those there on turn one most times.

DAZ0273

ThaRoadWarrior said:

So many of these 5s are weaksauce because they are tied to repeaters. I think you could change nothing, and just bring in a character with the Flaptain/Coulson-like ability to decrement them either on-demand or when matching some color, and instantly Gambit is back, Danver5 may or may not show up, Kingpin, Loki, Gho5t Rider....there are loads of characters who would be saved by that.

You could save Ghost Rider by having Hell Ride work with Wakanda Forever too - it does triple damage per tile destroyed, i feel like that's a clear distinction from similar powers that just destroy tiles for base damage lol.

A character like that could play down with P4nther, Frost, Nebula, Reed, probably some others...that's the perfect "useful at 1 cover" power we're missing for loads of interesting-but-slow characters that currently exist. It doesn't save Banner or Wa5p though.

Wasp probably needs a 5* Ant-man who can bring some interaction or improvement to the concept of her unique special tiles. It doesn't seem like the sort of power that anybody else thematically fits to bother doing any more with otherwise.

Banner...you got me there.

ammenell

how many face swaps could be done in the time you need to balance out the 5* tier ... 

DAZ0273

I'm happy to help them with new character art if they have a tight budget so they can shift focus. For example:

Old 5* Hulk art

New 5* Hulk art:

ThaRoadWarrior

ammenell said:

how many face swaps could be done in the time you need to balance out the 5* tier ... 

You don't want game artists balancing the 5* tier. The scope of effort to do a png-swap on an implemented character is probably trivial to the point it has 0pts in the backlog. Rebalancing is going to be at least 2-3 orders of magnitude more effort to design, balance, test, and then implement. Particularly in the case of Banner, who we have heard many times was not implemented in such a way that he is easily fixed.

DAZ0273 said:

Wasp probably needs a 5* Ant-man who can bring some interaction or improvement to the concept of her unique special tiles. It doesn't seem like the sort of power that anybody else thematically fits to bother doing any more with otherwise.

Banner...you got me there.

Wa5p needs a friend, or (gasp), a repeater that makes swarm tiles the way Carnage makes attack tiles every turn.

Banner is so close in my opinion. He needs to make more green, or make green regardless of what's on the board, or make the same number of green tiles but have them be charged so they're worth triple AP. Or have him make green the way Bishop makes purple. Or every time anyone on your team takes damage, he generates a green. something. Basically make his transformation easier. Then make it so the AP he collects when transformed is gathered. 

JSP869

CT1888 said:

I wouldn't actually change Kitty, instead I'd change Grocket - change it so that they make 4 strike tiles at the current higher value, unless you have another Guardian along, at which point they create 7. 

The problem with this change is Kitty only needs 4 specials on the board for her yellow passive to kick in, or 3 specials when you run her with Bishop/Rogue, which almost everyone does in the Simulator. While you can match the Strikes away, if you can't get to any on your first turn the AI's Kitty will still buff them before the AI makes its move. And if it's an R4G, Kitty, Bishop/Rogue team, even if you can get to 1 of the Strikes, Kitty will still buff the remaining 3.

On the flipside, with just 3-4 Strike tiles, this team won't be doing nasty amounts of damage right out of the gate like it's currently capable of doing.

Given D3's previous history though (OML, Gambit, etc.) I won't be surprised to see a nerfing in Kitty's future. They want us to keep spending and chasing the Latest 5*s, they don't want us cheaping out and going after the Classics.

CT1888

JSP869 said:

CT1888 said:

I wouldn't actually change Kitty, instead I'd change Grocket - change it so that they make 4 strike tiles at the current higher value, unless you have another Guardian along, at which point they create 7. 

The problem with this change is Kitty only needs 4 specials on the board for her yellow passive to kick in, or 3 specials when you run her with Bishop/Rogue, which almost everyone does in the Simulator. While you can match the Strikes away, if you can't get to any on your first turn the AI's Kitty will still buff them before the AI makes its move. And if it's an R4G, Kitty, Bishop/Rogue team, even if you can get to 1 of the Strikes, Kitty will still buff the remaining 3.

On the flipside, with just 3-4 Strike tiles, this team won't be doing nasty amounts of damage right out of the gate like it's currently capable of doing.

Given D3's previous history though (OML, Gambit, etc.) I won't be surprised to see a nerfing in Kitty's future. They want us to keep spending and chasing the Latest 5*s, they don't want us cheaping out and going after the Classics.

That's kind of the point - still a threat straight off the bat in pvp, but easier to shut down, while still having utility in Pve, but more vulnerable to ending in longer matches. Claws clipped a little rather than being neutered. 

As you say, given history I don't see nudge changes like this coming, but fear the nerf bat instead. 

theomen

I don't understand why usually all of a given character's powers get buffed or nerfed because, on paper, changing one power would make a big difference to a lot of characters and be much easier.

HoundofShadow

Because the devs mentioned that they have "budgets" for powers. Changing one power naturally affects the rest of the powers.