Infinite loop bug AGAIN !!!!.

Monkeynutts

I'm trying to play Rising Tensions - Cult of Rakdos - Green/Red Node.

And my opponent is Kiora. They cast only Naru Meha, Master Wizard on turn two and the thing starts infinitely casting itself over n over.... after it got to 350/350 and didn't seem to show signs of stopping so i had to quit.

It nice playing this game when you can actually get to play......

FIX WHAT YOU HAVE BROKEN !

Elektrophorus

The Naru Quasi loop does eventually end, by the way. It just seems longer because it has a lot of triggers.

Monkeynutts

Elektrophorus said:

The Naru Quasi loop does eventually end, by the way. It just seems longer because it has a lot of triggers.

Not fifty plus times. That's broken

ArielSira

It will be stopped by the 90 seconds timer

Tremayne

@ArielSira - sadly no, there are instances where the loop will not stop (or seem to stop). That is when the loop does not rely on new cards being cast. 

ArielSira

@Tremayne I've had the AI use this combo against me but the timer kicked in and I could kill the massive Naru on my turn. My log showed a long chain of only the 2 cards, why would it behave differently?

Tremayne

What do you mean by only 2 cards in the log?

the LPS seems to focus on preventing card casting. However, the LPS system does not empty the action stack, when the timer has run out. So all actions already on the action stack will be executed.

The problem occurs when one or more of the actions on the stack creates additional action(s), because they (the actions) are allowed to be performed. So if action A create an action B and action B creates an action A, then a pseudo infinite loop is kicked into being. It can run for many cycles before ending.

Monkeynutts

What you got to ask yourselves is why has a game got all these faults where stuff loops???.....

This isn't modern paper magic where stupid stuff that this happens.
This is ridiculous of a game developer to make these many mistakes to allow these many loops and bugs to exist in a game.

Tremayne

@Monkeynutts - agreed. I seem to recall that Hibernium also made some mistakes, but can’t remember if that was mainly balance issues or if it was also loop related.

 I fear that the change in development studio might have resulted in repeating the same mistakes that Hibernium made. But perhaps Oktagon is not involved in the design of the individual cards?

Mburn7

Tremayne said:

@Monkeynutts - agreed. I seem to recall that Hibernium also made some mistakes, but can’t remember if that was mainly balance issues or if it was also loop related.

 I fear that the change in development studio might have resulted in repeating the same mistakes that Hibernium made. But perhaps Oktagon is not involved in the design of the individual cards?

The only real loop issues designed by Hibernium were Baral, Season's Past, and Harness the Storm.
Season's Past and Harness were easy fixes, since they just made cards that fetch and gain mana fetch the card after mana is gained instead of before.

Baral was a much more complicated fix that started some protests from those who paid real money for him, but ended up being a fairly simple fix as well.

The Baral/Rashmi/Waterveil loop decks were always around, but in small enough numbers that there weren't a ton of complaints about them (since it was extremely difficult to get all the mythics you need to keep the loop going)

Brigby

Tremayne said:

ArielSira - sadly no, there are instances where the loop will not stop (or seem to stop). That is when the loop does not rely on new cards being cast. 

Would you mind providing some examples, because the LPS timer should just be time-based, as opposed to reliant on what cards are being cast.

Tremayne said:

Monkeynutts - agreed. I seem to recall that Hibernium also made some mistakes, but can’t remember if that was mainly balance issues or if it was also loop related.

 I fear that the change in development studio might have resulted in repeating the same mistakes that Hibernium made. But perhaps Oktagon is not involved in the design of the individual cards?

In my personal opinion, this will always be a challenge in any sort of collectible card game as more and more unique cards are created. The more cards enter the pool, the likelihood of a potential infinite combo increases.

Having said that though, Mark Rosewater wrote a really good piece on this topic called To Infinity and Beyond. What are everyone's thoughts on it?

wereotter

Infinite loops were inevitable in the paper game in legacy situations where any combinations, but they do try to keep infinite combos out of standard, and ban cards when they create them. The crazy cat lady Saheeli combo is a good example of Saheeli being able to make infinite hasted cat tokens during Kaladesh standard, which lead to Felidar Guardian being banned.

I think as far as legacy is concerned, these things should be looked at if they become parasitic, but you can't really eliminate them entirely, else your whole job will be spent playing legacy whack-a-mole for infinite combos. BUT for Standard, the cards really should be addressed in such a way that infinite combos aren't a thing. Naru Meha only goes infinite in this game because the paper legendary rule doesn't apply. You can have multiples of the same legendary without a problem, whereas these carsd in the paper game don't create the same interaction because you can only have one Naru Meha in play. I think there needs to be a playtest and balance team that seeks out these types of interactions in standard cards before they're released. Puzzle Quest doesn't play by the same rules as paper magic, so you can't rely on Wizards R&D to keep the cards balanced for play here.

ArielSira

@Tremayne "a long chain of only THE 2 cards". The, meaning Naru and Quasi, until the LPS kicked in.

I can't think of a reason the LPS wouldn't do this so like Brigby I'd like to know too.

Tremayne

Tremayne said:

What do you mean by only 2 cards in the log?

the LPS seems to focus on preventing card casting. However, the LPS system does not empty the action stack, when the timer has run out. So all actions already on the action stack will be executed.

The problem occurs when one or more of the actions on the stack creates additional action(s), because they (the actions) are allowed to be performed. So if action A create an action B and action B creates an action A, then a pseudo infinite loop is kicked into being. It can run for many cycles before ending.

@ArielSira  - So this post with action A and action B is not clear enough to describe the problem? 

As I have stated in this thread https://forums.d3go.com/discussion/77578/loop-prevention-system-more-details-updated-3-12-19/p8, I have encountered a loop that does not seem to end and I will not propagate that problem on the forum, so I’ll send Brigby a personal message, when I get the time.

ArielSira

That's not what I encounter.

Yesterday I played a match with Sunbird; when the LPS ended it was in the middle of playing Heroic Reinforcements, creating the 2 tokens but NOT granting haste to my Cyclops.

And the times I encountered Naru Quasi (I dont have Naru myself so cant test it) the LPS would end the 2 card loop at the time limit and pass the turn to me.

Tremayne

@ArielSira - what is your point, since your experience do not compare to mine? That what I have observed is wrong?

My guess is that LPS will stop the casting of cards, but not the action execution. Though it is impossible to be sure with the limited information released regarding the implementation of LPS.

Are you sure you didn’t made a mistake in your observations?

ArielSira

No, we most likely both observed correctly, as otherwise the games would have went differently for us. Cyclops not gaining haste meant an extra turn and as I had started with low life it nearly cost me the game.

The LPS kicking in when Greg used the combo against me is impossible to observe in a different way as well because I got to play after.

Both my observations seem to have the LPS working as intended; meaning it will end the combo, the reason this thread was opened and why I posted my reply.

If it didnt end the combo during your matches then Brigby is interested (as he said) cos that sounds like a bug.

Tremayne

Maybe, I have sent him a message, let us wait and see when he will get to it.

Monkeynutts

The key here is you shouldn't have to STARE at your screen for 90 SECOND to then MAYBE have another turn.

Such poor development.

Monkeynutts

Encountered this TINYKITTY loop again today...didn't loop; instead locked the game. The back ground was darkened and no options were selectable.. had to close the app...first loss in Nodes of Power...and too a card and loops that isn't even associated with Zendikar....


FIX YOUR TINYKITTY GAME