Does Kitty really need a nerf?

GrimSkald

So I'm on the MPQ Facebook group, and like every week there's someone there calling for a nerf of Kitty.  Facebook is actively a worse place to discuss things than here (I know, right?) so I thought I'd open up the subject.  What do you think?

So, I'm not a "Never Nerf" person - I was calling for Gambit's nerf from pretty much the get-go, but I'm really not sure she needs a nerf here.  Without Rocket and Groot she's... well she's decent and does some cool things, but she's pretty far from overpowered.  Without Rocket and Groot, I'd say she's probably the fourth most powerful 5*, maybe 5th (Thor, Okoye, JJ are definitely in front of her.)

Even with GRocket, I'm not sure she's actually overpowered.  You take a risk every time you go into the fight - one bad cascade and suddenly you're desperately looking for a way to put more specials on the board, because Kitty's Red requires really good timing, her yellow is good but protect tiles don't win the game, and Rocket's blue is expensive and somewhat unreliable.

Is GRocket the problem?  I think if there is a problem, they are.  Sticking out the strikes with no condition invites this sort of abuse, but without that they're kind of lackluster - his blue is expensive and unreliable (the generator gets destroyed a significant part of the time before it really earns its value,) and his green is super fun but very risky (Groot will destroy your specials, and sometimes he will "push the button.")  I think if they were to nerf R&G, I think the best plan would be to reduce the number of strikes they put out.  Maybe the number of strikes could be based on the condition, rather than the strength of the strikes (i.e put out 4 strike tiles at 276, 7 or 8 if there's a Guardian on the team.)

Like I said, I'm not sure there really is a problem here.  Bishop definitely makes things worse, but three character combos are only a real issue in SIM.

Oh, hey, should I have made this a poll?  I think I'd rather discuss it than see raw numbers...

GrimSkald

I'll add another point here - I like to climb with GRitty because it reduces how often I'm attacked, but I will definitely say I use a lot more health packs when I climb with GRitty (as opposed to Thorkoye.)  I think I wipe more often, too.

Tony_Foot

Nope she doesn't. There's also a solid counter in BSSM. People always say counter not nerf and even though I don't have BSSM I lose probably 1 in 12 against kitty. There should be risk. I find that acceptable.

I find her fun in pve and her existence doesn't mean everyone else is a bench warmer.

NotBAMF

Kitty (with Grocket) has made PVE somewhat less tedious and annoying than it was before her, so just for the sake of PVE, I hope she never gets nerfed.

I don't use her in PVP (outside of Simulator once I hit 1200 points or so) because I'm a 4* player and just use whoever is boosted instead of Gritty. I can't speak to how bad she may be in PVP.

spidyjedi84

No. There are counters to her that exist in 4-star and 5-star land. Once you get rid of Grocket's tiles, she's pretty glass jawed, and has little offensive capabilities. It's just matching those tiles fast can be hard on boards.
People kvetch and complain because they need matches to go fast, fast, fast if they're playing for placement, and a match you win against a Gritty team can take more time because you evaluate every move before making it. If you're playing a Thor Okoye which relies on a half powered Thor, not matching those tiles fast enough can spell doom for your team, as she can run away with the board easily. Kitty is a support character who boosts a plethora of different teams. It's just Grocket is the partner most people put her with because his strike tiles are already high amounts early on, and adding boosts to them makes it a quick fight. Kraven, Medusa, Carnage, Prowler, Bishop, BSSM, though... They're all effective in different pairings in neutralizing the threat of a Gritty team. 
With the introduction of Hela, we have a 5-star counter on the way that should be effective against both her and Thor/Okoye teams. 
Unlike Gambit, who was his own battery and had some destructive offensive capabilities that required you either had him or you couldn't compete in 5-star land, you don't need Kitty to compete in PVP and still do well. 

crackninja

There are ways to deal with gritty (and I even passed on the special store featuring bssm because I'm not afraid to face them) and seeing kitty without grocket is a welcome sight in pvp, so no, I don't see a need there.
Totally agree that she makes pve better...faster and some much needed variety for me.

ThunderKap

Grocket should only create strikes if paired with another Guardian of the Galaxy. That would not really be a nerf for either and would still work in Simulator but you need to bring along 5* Star Lord or another GOTG member.

sinnerjfl

Kitty is fine by herself, her tile buffing is great but the treshold is high enough that it slows her down. Grocket obviously solves that problem and he really makes her go out of control.

7 strike tiles on turn 1 is dumb, extremely dumb and unbalanced.

Her purple can be a tad annoying too, its a 1-turn fortified repeater, can be problematic sometimes, not sure if it warrants a tweak.

bluewolf

No Kitty nerf, seriously.

I'm sure there are lots of players who would love to see her buff turn into a 2 turn repeater.  They could then stop worrying about a feeder or finishing her off since she'd be mid-tier at best.

But.....here we are again.  Rocket.

The rock....it's stale to have a 2 year old character - while a new character is introduced every 2 weeks - still be the top recruitment choice.  

The hard place....slow down the clears without reducing the number required, and the flow of people leaving will turn into a mass exodus.

Do you really want your playtime to go up because your tools are less effective?

NotBAMF

bluewolf said:

No Kitty nerf, seriously.

I'm sure there are lots of players who would love to see her buff turn into a 2 turn repeater.  They could then stop worrying about a feeder or finishing her off since she'd be mid-tier at best.

But.....here we are again.  Rocket.

The rock....it's stale to have a 2 year old character - while a new character is introduced every 2 weeks - still be the top recruitment choice.  

The hard place....slow down the clears without reducing the number required, and the flow of people leaving will turn into a mass exodus.

Do you really want your playtime to go up because your tools are less effective?

I can't even fathom playing PVE if they nerf Grocket. I don't know about a mass exodus, but I'd strongly consider giving up PVE at least.

Warbringa

Kitty is great if you have her, not so great going up Gritty teams without her in PvP believe me.  I do think the problem is Grocket in the combo.  By herself, Kitty is not OP.  The damage from Gritty adds up far too fast to hope you get a good board on a regular basis and match the initial tiles away as suggested above.  BSSM is a good counter but an old classic 5* is tough to cover unless you happened to pull him when he was released.  The other 4* counters people have listed are not extremely effective counters to Gritty in 5* PvP.  My issue with Gritty is that it is too effective on both offense and defense, much like Gambit was.  It is not quite as bad as Gambit advantage, since there is at least one hard counter (BSSM) but fewer player have access to that counter so it is approaching Gambit levels of effectiveness. Being skipped in PvP by the majority of the player base is a huge advantage. The other older meta, Thor/Okoye, is really effective on offense, but it is real easy to beat that team too.     

wymtime

Honestly if Grocket would get the nerf it would be a big hit to Kitty.  Overall on her own she is a PVE 3rd 5* character.  She does greatbagainst goons in removing CD and special tiles, her yellow can mitigate damage but is meh, and her red is only good if you get hit with a power.  What makes her meta is Grocket spitting out strike tiles and she starts buffing them right away.  If you take away Grocket she is no longer fast and does not have a great 5* partner.  Maybe Hela as her 5* partner will be good.  

A tually what this discussion reminds me of is when Mystique blue was much better and you could run a team of Mystique, 2* mags and Professor X.  It was a winfinity with a mix of tiers.  The devs nerfed it because they didn’t like the winfinity aspect of the team, but I also think they didn’t like a 3* and 2* being so strong together.  The question will be how long will they want a 5* 4* combo be meta.

actually for the Meta if after end game if they introduce another strong 5* and the Mets does not shift I can see them making some balance changes 

UNC_Samurai

Tony_Foot said:

Nope she doesn't. There's also a solid counter in BSSM. People always say counter not nerf and even though I don't have BSSM I lose probably 1 in 12 against kitty. There should be risk. I find that acceptable.

I find her fun in pve and her existence doesn't mean everyone else is a bench warmer.

The only problem with saying "There's a Classic Legends that works as a counter," is that it's all but impossible for newer players to build that character.  Heck, mine was at 9-10 covers when Kitty was released, he's been my sole bonus 5* since Kitty rotated out, and I STILL need two not-blue covers to champ him and make him useful.

Side note, this is precisely why 5*s that are at least two years old need to have multiple 4* feeders.

Tony_Foot

UNC_Samurai said:

Tony_Foot said:

Nope she doesn't. There's also a solid counter in BSSM. People always say counter not nerf and even though I don't have BSSM I lose probably 1 in 12 against kitty. There should be risk. I find that acceptable.

I find her fun in pve and her existence doesn't mean everyone else is a bench warmer.

The only problem with saying "There's a Classic Legends that works as a counter," is that it's all but impossible for newer players to build that character.  Heck, mine was at 9-10 covers when Kitty was released, he's been my sole bonus 5* since Kitty rotated out, and I STILL need two not-blue covers to champ him and make him useful.

Side note, this is precisely why 5*s that are at least two years old need to have multiple 4* feeders.

Yeah I get that, I'm in the same boat but they also run vaults with them in. I think he's been in one already since kitty. Not only that, this isn't Gambit. You don't need Kitty to beat them consistently. You don't need BSSM either. I do it easily with Okoye and 4* Deadpool.

KGB

NotBAMF said:

bluewolf said:

No Kitty nerf, seriously.

I'm sure there are lots of players who would love to see her buff turn into a 2 turn repeater.  They could then stop worrying about a feeder or finishing her off since she'd be mid-tier at best.

But.....here we are again.  Rocket.

The rock....it's stale to have a 2 year old character - while a new character is introduced every 2 weeks - still be the top recruitment choice.  

The hard place....slow down the clears without reducing the number required, and the flow of people leaving will turn into a mass exodus.

Do you really want your playtime to go up because your tools are less effective?

I can't even fathom playing PVE if they nerf Grocket. I don't know about a mass exodus, but I'd strongly consider giving up PVE at least.

Add me to that list and I'm only a 4* player. Grocket makes my PvE clears tolerable since I don't have a 5* Thanos. He's literally cut my PvE time in half or better which is a quality of life change (ie more time to spend outside MPQ).

Honestly, if the fix for a 5* character is a change to a 4* character it says your thinking about the problem in the wrong way.

The *easiest* fix imaginable would be to just change Kittys buffing passive so that it buffs specials created by 5* characters at 100% (ie at the value it does now) and specials created by 4/3/2/1* at 33% (ie 1/3 of the value it does now). No need to change Grocket and Kitty's buff power will still be viable when she gets a true 5* partner (which will eventually happen) and she can still be used with Grocket or other lower tier character at a reduced rate (fine for PvE a little more risky in PvP).

KGB

TPF Alexis

GrimSkald said:

Is GRocket the problem?  I think if there is a problem, they are.  Sticking out the strikes with no condition invites this sort of abuse, but without that they're kind of lackluster - his blue is expensive and unreliable (the generator gets destroyed a significant part of the time before it really earns its value,) and his green is super fun but very risky (Groot will destroy your specials, and sometimes he will "push the button.")  I think if they were to nerf R&G, I think the best plan would be to reduce the number of strikes they put out.  Maybe the number of strikes could be based on the condition, rather than the strength of the strikes (i.e put out 4 strike tiles at 276, 7 or 8 if there's a Guardian on the team.)

Changing their yellow so the presence of another Guardian (or two) changes the number of Strikes rather than their strength sounds like a really cool re-work. If the numbers were tweaked right, it would leave them about the same in a team with another Guardian, but make them less of an obvious plug and play choice for other Teams.

BigSoftieFF

No nerf required at all. Thorkoye handles them 9/10 times if not more. I climbed the whole way in the Thor pvp with Okoye/XFDP and it may have actually been easier 😝.

Yes you can wipe against it but......ok?

The only thing I don’t really care for about Kitty is the free damage her purple creates during certain pvp’s (IF,LC,SW)

tiomono

UNC_Samurai said:

Tony_Foot said:

Nope she doesn't. There's also a solid counter in BSSM. People always say counter not nerf and even though I don't have BSSM I lose probably 1 in 12 against kitty. There should be risk. I find that acceptable.

I find her fun in pve and her existence doesn't mean everyone else is a bench warmer.

The only problem with saying "There's a Classic Legends that works as a counter," is that it's all but impossible for newer players to build that character.  Heck, mine was at 9-10 covers when Kitty was released, he's been my sole bonus 5* since Kitty rotated out, and I STILL need two not-blue covers to champ him and make him useful.

Side note, this is precisely why 5*s that are at least two years old need to have multiple 4* feeders.

So it's also all but impossible for newer players to build kitty by that logic. 

Kitty in a bubble does not need nerfed. Rocket is the issue in the combo.

 It's just sad because I feel her yellow and red would make more sense on wolverine. Damage that ramps up while having the protects simulating his resilience. Her purple is really the only thing that clearly feels like comic kitty to me.

Carnifexx

Nope.  

KGB

tiomono said:

Kitty in a bubble does not need nerfed. Rocket is the issue in the combo.

I disagree with that unless you mean just in 5* PvP/MMR.

I can assure you her passive is being abused in 3* PvP. This week 3* Daken and Blade are boosted and in 4* PvP I am seeing a *ton* of Kitty/Daken or Kitty/Blade teams (since they are boosted). Easy pickings for me in 4*PvP/MMR land with a champed Kraven (also boosted this week) but I imagine those combo's are every bit the terror in 3* PvP that Kitty/Grocket is in 5* PvP.

As I mentioned above, change her passive to boost 4* and below specials at a reduced rate (33%) and you solve the problem in every tier without needing to nerf any other tiers characters while leaving her viable for future 5* teammates.

KGB

AlexR

NotBAMF said:

Kitty (with Grocket) has made PVE somewhat less tedious and annoying than it was before her, so just for the sake of PVE, I hope she never gets nerfed.

This. Gritty's a godsend for PvE. My clears have never been quicker! And PvE is so grindy that anything that speeds it up is much appreciated.

As a 4* player with very little effective ways of dealing with it, I do auto-skip Gritty in Sim as much as possible though. (And Sim is 95% Gritty, it's very annoying.) 

Rather than nerfing Kitty or GRocket (who by themselves each aren't a problem and together improve PvE clearing speed), my personal wish would be that they'd buff Kraven with anti-Kitty properties. Countering meta GRocket teams is literally all he exists for. (And he's normally good at that too, except Kitty out-buffs his debuffs so he's not a good Gritty counter. Sadly, he's literally my best bet.) Wouldn't help the 5* side any, admittedly, but sure would make my 4* life easier.