Copy card rule change

starfall

After the LPS system was introduced into the game (for better or worse), and older rules fudge was changed back to it's original form, so copy cards can once again be cast on the turn they are created.

I wondered what people thought about this change?

On the one hand, it does seem like the change back is an obvious one; the copy card delay was originally created to solve a problem created by loops, and that problem has now been solved by alternative means.

On the other hand, we now once again have some very degenerate Standard decks, with abilities that Legacy decks would be jealous of; casting a Single Naru Meha can give you a 300/300 stack of them within the first couple of turns of the game, Expansion copying BSZ can give you some very, very big turns, and while I've not been able to test this one personally, presumably Thousand Year Storm is uber-powerful again? Was the copy card delay a rule created just to fix infinite loops, or was it also to curb broken cards, which can now once again run rampant?

Mburn7

It's OK to be able to cast copy cards on the same turn as you create them.

As far as I can tell the copy rule was put into place to stop loop decks.  Since the loops are gone, why not let the copies be cast as they were originally designed?

Besides, the combos enabled now involve Mythic or Masterpiece cards and some very specific deck setups.  I say let them be.

nerdstrap

It's OK to be able to cast copy cards on the same turn as you create them.

it never shouldve been changed in the first place - it was an earlier example of reactionary/poorly thought out design

Stormcrow

It's OK to be able to cast copy cards on the same turn as you create them.

starfall said:

or was it also to curb broken cards, which can now once again run rampant?

LOL. That rule change never stopped broken cards from running rampant - BSZ/Sunbird worked just fine, for instance - it just stopped a handful of specific degenerate combos from working. There's no logic behind BSZ/Expansion being nerfed while BSZ/Sunbird gets to be fine. If the devs want to nerf BSZ or Naru Meha combos, they should stop beating around the bush with all these hamfisted global rules changes and just nerf BSZ and/or Naru Meha.

Mburn7

It's OK to be able to cast copy cards on the same turn as you create them.

Stormcrow said:

starfall said:

or was it also to curb broken cards, which can now once again run rampant?

LOL. That rule change never stopped broken cards from running rampant - BSZ/Sunbird worked just fine, for instance - it just stopped a handful of specific degenerate combos from working. There's no logic behind BSZ/Expansion being nerfed while BSZ/Sunbird gets to be fine. If the devs want to nerf BSZ or Naru Meha combos, they should stop beating around the bush with all these hamfisted global rules changes and just nerf BSZ and/or Naru Meha.

Well, they did nerf Naru by making her ETB effect a Cast effect (so stuff like Siren's Ruse doesn't work anymore).

BSZ is an entirely different problem, since a card like that never should have been designed in the first place.  The only way to "fix" it now would be to either drop the mana gained to like 2 (since even halving it to 6 would enable some nasty non-BSZ combos) or to just redesign the card entirely, and neither of those are exactly good options.

Laeuftbeidir

It's OK to be able to cast copy cards on the same turn as you create them.

Copies should cast the same turn. Blue needs to be nerfed hard.

Unknown

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Unknown

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Tremayne

starfall said:

Mburn7 said:

BSZ is an entirely different problem, since a card like that never should have been designed in the first place.  The only way to "fix" it now would be to either drop the mana gained to like 2 (since even halving it to 6 would enable some nasty non-BSZ combos)

You're not wrong. What kind of game designer looks at Behold The Beyond and thinks: "Let's try doubling the amount of mana that thing produces"

I suppose the designer thought that upping the price by 1 would be sufficient compensation for doubling the amount of mana. #sarcasm.

I believe it was a couple of years ago, that the top players (then) debated the mechanic of making cards free. If I remember correctly, they ended up agreeing that it was a fundamental problem for the game that the developers had introduced this.

Perhaps dialing BSZ back by temporarily boosting mana bonuses would be a way to go?

Brakkis

I don't mind either way

BSZ is only supposed to be a draw card that goes back in your library to draw more. Not the over powered mana engine they made it here in PQ.

Blue ate the whole damn color pie in PQ. I believe we somewhat concluded the only thing it doesn't reign supreme at currently is permanent disabled. So white still has something.

wereotter

The other solution to Blue Sun's Zenith....

Just change the title and art to Epic Experiment. Then it's actually the card you're playing. Problem solved

Because giving this card to every red planeswalker too? Nothing bad could ever come from that....

mrixl2520

It's OK to be able to cast copy cards on the same turn as you create them.

Brakkis said:

BSZ is only supposed to be a draw card that goes back in your library to draw more. Not the over powered mana engine they made it here in PQ.

Blue ate the whole damn color pie in PQ. I believe we somewhat concluded the only thing it doesn't reign supreme at currently is permanent disabled. So white still has something.

In all fairness, blueberry is the best pie.

ManiiNames

It's OK to be able to cast copy cards on the same turn as you create them.

BSZ is strong as tinykitty.  It has warped the meta to such a degree that playing decks not designed around it is a losing bargain.  

Froggy

I don't mind either way

You forgot an option - do Away with LPS.

Next time anyone/everyone faces Azor’s Gateway, I’d be interested to hear what they have to say.

I’m just tired of the dev teams constantly finding ways to alter rules of Magic to destroy players’ abilities to run loops. It’s quite sad. Like they’ve lost sight of the game in the first place (finding great synergy and combos to win games and overpower your opponents). This card copy feature is just another sad story. Find one bugged combo - punish the whole game and all players in it.

Thésée

It's not OK to be able to cast copy cards on the same turn as you create them.

BSZ + Expansion is just too powerful. Either BSZ must be nerfed or they should return to the previous "copies have to wait until the next turn" rule.

Unknown

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tfg76

It's OK to be able to cast copy cards on the same turn as you create them.

I think the copy rule is good, but the card balancing is bad.