The problem with "Summon" - PLEASE FIX THIS

tryptic

The recent updates to this game have changed how it tracks what counts as a "Summon".  I was shocked to learn today that if the AI casts Downsing Dagger, and you get the plant tokens, that counts as two summons against your total.  So, if an objective is cast 2 or more of X type of creature, and a second objective is cast 2 or less, if Downsing is in the other side's deck, its become impossible to meet both objectives.  

I dont agree with the change that calling tokens counts a summoning, but this is far worse....a card I didnt cast and may be unable to stop costs getting the full set of objectives.  That just is not right.

Of course there are a few very specific ways to combat this, at the cost of making a pigeon-holed deck to try to stop it...and even then if the timing doesnt work out you still lose....

Please fix this!

thesmallesthuman

Hear hear! 

Would also like to add that if the objectives for HoR this weekend remain unchanged, then green node means we have to play completely creature(and token)-less but also must kill - and therefore create - creatures on the other side of the board. Everyone will be running dagger and moon and soforth, and it'll all come down to just absolute dumb luck - did you manage to loop your spells before your opponent managed to cast dagger or not?

I know there's always an element of luck to this game and I'm down with that but I really think this new summon definition is far too restrictive for an objective that can be destroyed by something so impossible at times to avoid. The fact that dagger costs 4 means even if you're somehow able to spam Infinite Obliteration or whatnot every turn, it can still be very easily drawn and cast same turn. Nevermind the fact that we're already trying to win with no creatures and now no tokens on a green node. 

I love a good weird challenge, and I'm not usually too quick to call unfair. But this new summon definition feels bad man.

Scifibot

Yeah that is nuts that somehow this is even a possiblity.  Fix it please this must be a glitch.

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Scifibot

@starfall Wait someone actually wanted these changes?  The old way was perfect as far as I could tell why break
 it if it isn't broken?

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Feden

Um, it's been broken the entire year I've been playing?  I've never been certain whether tokens/reanimation/stealing... counted before trying it.  Obviously I wish they'd fix it quicker, but the fact that they acknowledged it and are fixing it is great.

tryptic

starfall said:

Scifibot said:

@starfall Wait someone actually wanted these changes?  

This system is much preferable to the old one!

I disagree entirely unless you are also advocating for and implementing a fix to the objectives that make this new 'system' destroy our ability to meet those objectives. 

I think @thesmallesthuman best ID's the problem, it is nearly IMPOSSIBLE to meet an objective if anyone carries Downsing Dagger.  The chances of holding the AI from ever casting that card, which we will see a lot this weekend, are infinitesimal at best.  So, the end result will be someone or a couple of players will be amazingly lucky not to face that card, while everyone else is at an automatic disadvantage.

Now, if the objectives are fixed to say 'cast' instead of 'summon', that might help this tremendously.  As it stands right now, this definitional change is a solution in search of a problem.

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tryptic

I really dont want to have this die into oblivion....so how do we effect this change?

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Tremayne

I thought the “suggestions and feedback” section was just a rumour!!! 

hawkyh1

I vote to keep the new(more correct) definition/coding of
summon. all we now need is for all the events affected to
have their objectives corrected to cast x creatures.(as
this is correct to the original intention)

HH

thesmallesthuman

Many good points above. MTG is the most literal game ever made and I like it that way. Moving the PQ version in the direction of standardized, across-the-board rules is all kinds of great. 

So yeah, now what we need is objectives to work with the new definitions that don’t squeeze us in ways that feel completely futile.

Also here to add: these new definitions are still far from perfect. The rules for the vamp node in EC are “summon x vamps”, yet after bringing a stack of blood operatives back from the GY, and using connive to summon etrata, my objective still says I summoned zero vampires. It was clearly operating under “cast” instead of “summon” rules. And that’s cool! I can cast them! But I sure like knowing what I need to do before obsessively checking the battle log all game long, yaknow?

Long story short: I feel like things are moving in the right direction, and that’s great. But in the meantime players who love to play competitively are getting all kinds of screwed by unclear rules and definitions and objectives. I’m at a point these days where I join every event as late as possible so I have many hours for my guinea-pig coalition mates to report back on whatever various new bugs and definition changes have ruined their games. I mean, god bless em, but wouldn’t it be nice if every event didn’t involve bending around brand new, unannounced “rules”?

We all thought that tokens suddenly counting as summons was a huge new bug until we reported it and the devs responded, yep that’s the new rule. Like come on. 

I know I’m not saying anything here that nobody has said before, but apparently I’m in rant mode tonight so. Sorry everybody but also plz send help!

Thanks

Brigby

Hi Everyone. Just wanted to pop in to clear the air on a couple of things:

1. Here are the intended behaviors of Summon vs Cast

• Summon counts for creatures that enter the battlefield from anywhere. This also counts tokens too.
• Cast counts only creatures that enter the battlefield from your hand.

OmegaLolrus

Brigby said:

Hi Everyone. Just wanted to pop in to clear the air on a couple of things:

1. Here are the intended behaviors of Summon vs Cast

• Summon counts for creatures that enter the battlefield from anywhere. This also counts tokens too.
• Cast counts only creatures that enter the battlefield from your hand.

The team is aware of certain event objectives behaving incorrectly when considering the above rules. These are all objectives the team have to individually adjust, so this will be a gradual correction over time.

Thank you all for your patience and understanding!

In the correcting portion, does that include the issue with things like Dowsing Dagger? It's a really negative game experience when I'm two rounds in, haven't cast a single creature, and I've already failed the "cast 2 or less creatures" objective.

Brigby

OmegaLolrus said:

Brigby said:

Hi Everyone. Just wanted to pop in to clear the air on a couple of things:

1. Here are the intended behaviors of Summon vs Cast

• Summon counts for creatures that enter the battlefield from anywhere. This also counts tokens too.
• Cast counts only creatures that enter the battlefield from your hand.

The team is aware of certain event objectives behaving incorrectly when considering the above rules. These are all objectives the team have to individually adjust, so this will be a gradual correction over time.

Thank you all for your patience and understanding!

In the correcting portion, does that include the issue with things like Dowsing Dagger? It's a really negative game experience when I'm two rounds in, haven't cast a single creature, and I've already failed the "cast 2 or less creatures" objective.

Since Cast should only count creatures that enter the battlefield from your hand, and Dowsing Daggers summons tokens instead as part of its ability, it makes sense that the objective being adjusted should also solve that issue. 

Avahad

So what’s basically being said is that summon less than x objectives should NEVER be a thing as that can leave the objective luck based?
so we should see the remaining ones of those changed to cast less than x objectives in the very near future?

Machine

@Brigby: what about stealing creatures (either temporarily with Act of Treason, or permanently with In Bolas's Clutches)? Since these are already on the battlefield, these creatures shouldn't count towards both Cast and Summon. I've seen reports by players that stealing creatures also count as summoning.

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tryptic

@Brigby For the event this weekend, will we get Cast X or Less instead of Summon X or less, so that the problem with the opponent carrying Downsing Dagger is not an issue?