3.2 Content Details & Future Updates - Blog Post (1/30/19)

Brigby
Brigby ADMINISTRATORS Posts: 7,757 Site Admin
in MtGPQ General Discussion
Hi Everyone,

Alain Valchera and Pedro Rauiz – Game Designers at Oktagon for MtGPQ – are back again with another blog post! This time they're going into further detail about some of the changes implemented in the most recent build.

In addition, they're opening up the curtains a bit to give players a high level glimpse at what they're working on implementing later down the road. Check out the blog post below:
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Comments

  • Laeuftbeidir
    Laeuftbeidir Posts: 1,841 Chairperson of the Boards
    edited January 2019
    Thanks for the blog post!
    It must have been under development since the beginning of the week - mentioning that it's on its way would have been the right move! There were around a dozen requests and several postings regarding exactly this.
    Posting this with the update would have solved 95% of the discussions and salt about it.

    'During the initial conversion, all players were placed according to a conversion curve that differs from their current card mastery, in order to still allow level gaining.'

    Does that mean there is a hard cap on the levels? If so - which one?
    Because the curve hits harder the more cards you have mastered. Using the numbers above, only 15% of my XP was transferred (lvl 41 after the update), but for others in the 30s it was around 25%. Those players can easily exceed my maximum level by far, since they often have around the same amount of cards. Players with way fewer cards can reach my level - well, if used as a basis for matchmaking this will put me at an advantage.
    This all makes more sense if the level is limited to 50 levels.

    Could you provide a table to this as well?


    Edit - the season thingy sounds interesting. Not as interesting as new coalition events, but interesting nonetheless!
  • Brakkis
    Brakkis Posts: 777 Critical Contributor
    edited January 2019
    Charges-based events, though, remain the same: each charge awarding +20 Card XP.

    Given that we all just played an event this weekend where this was not the case, was Avacyn's Madness bugged? Because we got 20 XP on the first run through of a node, and only 2 XP each time we ran it after.

    During the initial conversion, all players were placed according to a conversion curve that differs from their current card mastery, in order to still allow level gaining.

    I have nearly 1900 cards mastered. I was placed at level 40 with less than 20% of the available cards in the game left to master. Another player with a similar card collection as mine was placed at 36 with only 700ish cards mastered. I can guarantee you that if that player chooses to master all of the cards they have, their level will far surpass mine with a difference of less than 30 cards.

    Seems as though this "curve" is greatly punishing those of us who got bored and mastered cards.
  • Laeuftbeidir
    Laeuftbeidir Posts: 1,841 Chairperson of the Boards
    edited January 2019
    200 more cards would've granted you two levels. And those were likely no commons or uncommons. The curve seems to be exponential. Could someone unmaster me.. Let's say a thousand cards?
  • Mburn7
    Mburn7 Posts: 3,427 Chairperson of the Boards
    edited January 2019
    Brigby said:
    Hi Everyone,

    Alain Valchera and Pedro Rauiz – Game Designers at Oktagon for MtGPQ – are back again with another blog post! This time they're going into further detail about some of the changes implemented in the most recent build.

    In addition, they're opening up the curtains a bit to give players a high level glimpse at what they're working on implementing later down the road. Check out the blog post below:
    This is certainly a start, but it doesn't really explain to me why a player who started at level 39 can get a non-dupe Legacy rare when they level up but someone like myself who started at level 40 can never get that reward.

    Also, can they explain how they determined where the cutoffs for the tiered auto-level rewards were placed? 
    Based on my data the tiers were:  1-20, 21-27, 28-40, and 40+ (Note:  I have not confirmed that 1-20 was one tier.  I don't have any date from levels <12)
    That 28-40 gap is HUGE and contains a very very large chunk of leveling rewards.  It still seems odd that all of those levels would be bunched together into one tier.

    Also, one more comment.  This line "in order to maintain a healthy economy in MtGPQ, these automatic rewards could not be equivalent to the normal progression total" makes absolutely no sense.  Based on my data so far the majority of the excess rewards would just be Runes and Legacy boosters, with a small amount of gems and crystals for the players closer to level 40.  For those players full rewards would mean an extra hundred thousand runes (AKA 1 Mono-Color Planeswalker) and a handful of legacy boosters (which contain about 1200 possible cards, most of which would be duplicates for a player at that level).  Would that really break the game economy?  I'm very skeptical.

    I will say I am happy to see that there will be future events and rewards geared to higher level players as well as opportunities for players who have mastered a lot of cards to gain more XP.  But there is still a lot more information we need to see before I can make any real judgement.

  • Machine
    Machine Posts: 857 Critical Contributor

    @Brigby: this whole "players that already have mastered a lot of cards and won't get the same rewards as players that start mastering cards" stinks and is unfair. Is that how Oktagon is going to threat their veteran players, who probably have spent a lot of $$$ in their game?

    Also, Brakkis is correct. During Avacyn's Madness, the second time one played a node already played in the same event, only 2 XP was given for unmastered cards, which is NOT as described in this blog post. It says that charge-based events reward 20 XP to cards regardless how many times that encounter has been played.

    I strongly urge to make sure all players get the same rewards, veteran and new players alike and also fix the card XP issue in Avacyn's Madness. Please check each individual's card mastery and player level, because it is not correct.

    Thank you!

  • Brigby
    Brigby ADMINISTRATORS Posts: 7,757 Site Admin
    Hi Everyone. Thanks for all the feedback. Alain wanted to pass along some responses to a couple of questions and comments players have said.

    Avacyn's Madness was only giving 2 XP to unmastered cards, not 20
    "Thanks for the feedback regarding rechargeable nodes. The team confirmed they should provide +20 XP as normal when recharged and it will be corrected in the closest update."

    Why did veteran players not receive the same rewards as newer players?
    "Regarding the rewards that were given, the point to be made is the amount versus the intervals they were/will be given in. The path we found ourselves in was to either lower the rewards planned throughout the next feature updates but provide a bunch upfront (not only for veterans but for newer players as well as they would, otherwise, feel relegated) or to space them out over the following months providing multiple rewards for veteran players and new players alike.

    The first would benefit who's currently in the game, but seemed rather disappointing in the following months when a lot of the new features would become available and for those we still want to reach. The second would allow the planned game modes and Trophies to provide more rewards for veterans (even some unique ones in some cases) than what was just given.

    We'd like to remind the community that more free content and rewards should be available soon for long time players - those with many mastered cards -, once we have the next implementations up and running. Not just free content, but new (exclusive) customization content as well."

    Brigby's TL;DR: Avacyn's Madness should have given out 20 XP. This will be fixed in an upcoming build. The team plans to give veteran players more rewards over the long-term, due to their higher player level than newer players, once upcoming features are implemented.
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  • Mburn7
    Mburn7 Posts: 3,427 Chairperson of the Boards
    Brigby said:


    Why did veteran players not receive the same rewards as newer players?
    "Regarding the rewards that were given, the point to be made is the amount versus the intervals they were/will be given in. The path we found ourselves in was to either lower the rewards planned throughout the next feature updates but provide a bunch upfront (not only for veterans but for newer players as well as they would, otherwise, feel relegated) or to space them out over the following months providing multiple rewards for veteran players and new players alike.

    The first would benefit who's currently in the game, but seemed rather disappointing in the following months when a lot of the new features would become available and for those we still want to reach. The second would allow the planned game modes and Trophies to provide more rewards for veterans (even some unique ones in some cases) than what was just given.

    We'd like to remind the community that more free content and rewards should be available soon for long time players - those with many mastered cards -, once we have the next implementations up and running. Not just free content, but new (exclusive) customization content as well."

    Brigby, please tell them thank you for the extra insight.

    This is the kind of information that should have been included in the 3.2 patch notes, not something that needs to be slowly explained over the course of several weeks.

    I'm still wondering why they chose to tier the rewards the way they did (AKA: how did they determine that levels 28-40 would be just one big tier), but this is at least a start.
  • Laeuftbeidir
    Laeuftbeidir Posts: 1,841 Chairperson of the Boards
    It's not all about the rewards. Past or coming. We want to actually understand the level system. What we currently know is : the more cards you have mastered, the less experience you can gain. Other content  (and the xp achievable) in the future will likely be the same for everyone, so the "curve" used feels like you punished players who actively mastered cards.That'swhy I'd like to know if there is a maximum level obtainable, and if so, which one. 50?60?100?
    If there is none, you did punish us. If there's one - why don't you share it?

    The full list with all rewards, maximum level and XP necessary should be accessible anyway.
  • IM_CARLOS
    IM_CARLOS Posts: 640 Critical Contributor
    I get the point to equalize the player base on a certain point. But all the player with a large base of mastered cards invest lot of money to get those cards and a lot of time to master them and get punished now for do such stupid thing.

    So tell me, why should I pay real cash for such things?

     The rewards for leveling are nothing if you payed a lot of money to nearly complete your collection. A little bitter, but nothing to worry about for long time. The biggest issue for veteran player/payer is the future this feature and the fact that they never will catch up the loss of exp. 

    Every system should have been linear, exp., level and rewards, so everybody have the same chance. 
  • GrizzoMtGPQ
    GrizzoMtGPQ Posts: 776 Critical Contributor
    The moral of the story here:

    Never give away something for minimal or no reward.

    1. You can trade your dupes for runes. If you held them you got orbs instead.
    2. You can master your cards and get nothing but numbers increased on your profile count. If you didn’t you get rewards.

    The new one is opening packs. You can open them for orbs or you can hold your packs waiting for the pity timer.

    This game is the definition of being patient, waiting for opportunities, and maximizing on those.
  • Brakkis
    Brakkis Posts: 777 Critical Contributor
    In addition to the issue involving levels, the other thing I personally take issue with is the drastic reduction in XP gained through repeat clears of Story nodes, including Heroic Story, as well as the reduction from TG and any PvE event with infinite attempts.

    I can understand, to a degree, the reduction in XP gained through Heroic Story nodes. 50 XP per clear could be deemed too high a number. But reducing it to 6 XP, 12% of the previous amount, also results in increasing the number of clears required to master a card by an insane amount. Mastering a Mythic/Masterpiece took 16 wins. Now it takes 134.

    The only other options for consistent mastering of cards is RT (Standard) and TotP (Legacy) Both of these are limited in their attempts and good luck running janky decks with subpar cards for mastery in those and still winning. 

    The XP shouldn't have been reduced by such a drastic amount. You've tanked mastery speed too much. 
  • Brigby
    Brigby ADMINISTRATORS Posts: 7,757 Site Admin
    Brakkis said:
    In addition to the issue involving levels, the other thing I personally take issue with is the drastic reduction in XP gained through repeat clears of Story nodes, including Heroic Story, as well as the reduction from TG and any PvE event with infinite attempts.

    I can understand, to a degree, the reduction in XP gained through Heroic Story nodes. 50 XP per clear could be deemed too high a number. But reducing it to 6 XP, 12% of the previous amount, also results in increasing the number of clears required to master a card by an insane amount. Mastering a Mythic/Masterpiece took 16 wins. Now it takes 134.

    The only other options for consistent mastering of cards is RT (Standard) and TotP (Legacy) Both of these are limited in their attempts and good luck running janky decks with subpar cards for mastery in those and still winning. 

    The XP shouldn't have been reduced by such a drastic amount. You've tanked mastery speed too much. 
    Taking a quote from the blog post, "Yes, card mastery is, as of this moment, the only way of raising your level, but won't be for long."

    While I can certainly understand the concern over experience reduction from those repeatable Story encounters, the team will be implementing new additional ways to gain experience beyond just Card Mastery.

    For example, "...    we have plans involving additional game modes, not just events. Those will provide experience gain for Player Levels without being tied to card mastery."
  • GrizzoMtGPQ
    GrizzoMtGPQ Posts: 776 Critical Contributor
    Brigby said:
    Brakkis said:
    In addition to the issue involving levels, the other thing I personally take issue with is the drastic reduction in XP gained through repeat clears of Story nodes, including Heroic Story, as well as the reduction from TG and any PvE event with infinite attempts.

    I can understand, to a degree, the reduction in XP gained through Heroic Story nodes. 50 XP per clear could be deemed too high a number. But reducing it to 6 XP, 12% of the previous amount, also results in increasing the number of clears required to master a card by an insane amount. Mastering a Mythic/Masterpiece took 16 wins. Now it takes 134.

    The only other options for consistent mastering of cards is RT (Standard) and TotP (Legacy) Both of these are limited in their attempts and good luck running janky decks with subpar cards for mastery in those and still winning. 

    The XP shouldn't have been reduced by such a drastic amount. You've tanked mastery speed too much. 
    Taking a quote from the blog post, "Yes, card mastery is, as of this moment, the only way of raising your level, but won't be for long."

    While I can certainly understand the concern over experience reduction from those repeatable Story encounters, the team will be implementing new additional ways to gain experience beyond just Card Mastery.

    For example, "...we have plans involving additional game modes, not just events. Those will provide experience gain for Player Levels without being tied to card mastery."
    That’s well and good as promised but things move slowly and without much communication it’s hard to plan around such things. Maybe we’ll see that in 3.3 or it could be 6 months from now. In the meantime @Brakkis has the right of it. We use RT, AI, and TOTP at 20 XP a pop.
  • Brakkis
    Brakkis Posts: 777 Critical Contributor
    edited January 2019
    Brigby said:
    Brakkis said:
    In addition to the issue involving levels, the other thing I personally take issue with is the drastic reduction in XP gained through repeat clears of Story nodes, including Heroic Story, as well as the reduction from TG and any PvE event with infinite attempts.

    I can understand, to a degree, the reduction in XP gained through Heroic Story nodes. 50 XP per clear could be deemed too high a number. But reducing it to 6 XP, 12% of the previous amount, also results in increasing the number of clears required to master a card by an insane amount. Mastering a Mythic/Masterpiece took 16 wins. Now it takes 134.

    The only other options for consistent mastering of cards is RT (Standard) and TotP (Legacy) Both of these are limited in their attempts and good luck running janky decks with subpar cards for mastery in those and still winning. 

    The XP shouldn't have been reduced by such a drastic amount. You've tanked mastery speed too much. 
    Taking a quote from the blog post, "Yes, card mastery is, as of this moment, the only way of raising your level, but won't be for long."

    While I can certainly understand the concern over experience reduction from those repeatable Story encounters, the team will be implementing new additional ways to gain experience beyond just Card Mastery.

    For example, "...we have plans involving additional game modes, not just events. Those will provide experience gain for Player Levels without being tied to card mastery."

    Those methods of leveling are all well and good. I can't wait to see what they are and how they function. Truly.

    However, those new methods are separate from card mastery. Card mastery is still going to exist, it is still going to place players in a structured tier of rewards. Reaching a higher level of mastery from Bronze -> Silver -> Gold -> Platinum now takes an extremely lengthier time. 

    As has been mentioned already, the only viable methods of gaining consistent card experience are RT and TotP. Those are not viable for players in tiers below Platinum, cost-wise. They would be the ones most effected by this change.

    Edit - This is not just a jarring issue in Heroic Story. Even the change from 20 XP to 2 XP in TG and regular Story nodes changed the amount of matches for a Mythic/Masterpiece from 40 to 400. The reduction went too far.
  • Tilwin90
    Tilwin90 Posts: 662 Critical Contributor
    Any way to try to patch this system it's going to be problematic. Because in spite of people complaining that they want change, they also complain when change happens. That's because of the lack of control and vision we have in regards to the product itself (the game). Therefore it's the job of the product team to figure out how to juggle with expectations and the results of changes.

    To be very honest I'm not sure how this whole new XP system could've been done better. Truly. Transparency can be used as an argument up to a point. And looking at the implementation, there are many routes that could've been taken, especially since the system itself was imperfect. Mastery never mattered once you reached platinum, so mastering cards was a pure "fun" thing to do.

    What does it make a player an "elite" player? Is it the time spent in the game? Is it the time since they joined the game? Is it the large card collection? Is it playing with those amazing cards? Is it having access ONLY to the power cards and playing only with those cards? And what does dedication mean anyway? Does it show through mastering cards, being active in the community? Does it show through being part of a strong coalition? Does it involve playing in all those events? Is Free to Play better, and if so why? How do you value the skill level of the player... It's all very very subjective.

    I am a long time player who has access to a lot of the cards, yet I never bothered with forceful mastery. Once I reached platinum I did not see it worth my time and energy. I see it just like players playing weird cards in order to find new original ways of approaching the games (Johnnies). Then there are players part of the competitive scene who focus on improving powerful decks and building "that best deck" to maximize wins and prove their skill level(Spikes). And there are players who just like to go big and have fun. (Timmies) Is one more elite than the other? I have taken the hat of each of these hats, and to be honest I think it's the Spike aspect that I enjoy the best, with moments where I like big wins, and occasionally build those quirky original but weird decks (though that has happened less frequently due to time restrictions).

    But back to the subject, I'm still trying to think which would've been the best approach, because there are SO MANY OPTIONS:
    - Start from scratch - that upsets the players that have already mastered all those cards, though let's face it, they didn't do it for a future reward. This would've lead to a flat restart for everyone. Unfortunately this also meddled with the current tier system and that could lead to nasty abuses of the current structure. You couldn't do this without completely rethinking and rebuilding everything (tiers, mastery, XP etc.)
    - Give players the real level. You do that, suddenly advantaged players gain even more advantage. But even worse than that, those players no longer get to level up, they miss that "initial journey" from a completely new perspective that the levels offer. So this functionality would bring nothing new to "work for" and have fun for the end gaming players.
    - Find a somewhere in the middle approach where you try to give older players some reward and advantage for being around for so long but don't cut the whole journey and fun. And this is what actually happened.

    What concerns me now (but it's an unjustified fear based out of the little information we have right now) is that unlike other players who have bothered with Mastering cards, I don't see why I would be denied the opportunity to enjoy "exclusive content". I also wouldn't want to be forced to master bad cards just so I can have some totally unrelated benefit. But I'm looking forward to see how everything will turn out.
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  • Tilwin90
    Tilwin90 Posts: 662 Critical Contributor
    @starfall
    I was referring to the rewards there. Since these levels come with rewards, I was strictly related to that part. Or are you suggesting that players should've been given the raw level without the just rewards associated with all that level up? That's my real issue here with "real level". Perhaps it does look like I was referring to the number alone, sorry if that was the cause of the confusion.

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