This is why I hate PVP (or How the hell do you PVP)?

heybubheybub Posts: 215 Tile Toppler
in MPQ Tips and Guides
I made the mistake of playing PVP last night.  I saw the final cover for Mordo that I needed, and after 8 wins was comfortably on my way to getting said cover.  I hit 700 pts rather easily and interpolated a smooth climb to 900.  But then I hit 820...I was completely surrounded by champed Rogue and Chavez at every node, and although I could beat them with my Gramocket (or Grockmora if you will) it wasn't a sure thing or easy battle.  Finally I hit 855 at like 13wins or so...two more wins to hit 900 points even if I was getting less than 30pts for lvl400 Rogue/Chavez/Doom.  I could smell victory...but apparently that tinykitty goddess of PVP could sense my confidence and decided to put me in my place and crush my hopes and dreams.  Ended up losing a PVP battle (-28pts) and, oh wait, someone sniped my tinykitty, pushing me back down to ~805pts.  I got back up and dusted myself off, won another battle, and another.  One more win to make 900...oh wait, sniped again, back down.  I ended up making 21 wins, but never hit that 900 mark, and finally conceded defeat. 

tinykitty, man.  This game sucks! I tinykitty quit!  Ok....so I don't really quit, and will continue playing every single day for another four years (damn you mpq!).

But this highlights why I hate PVP, because this almost always happens.  I can't get above water and make that threshold due to difficulty or being sniped.  I like the fact they put in the wins threshold, but 40 wins is a lot, and even that can be pretty hard to get once you get high enough.  It's like you have to climb, get knocked down, climb back up, etc. till you hit the threshold.

How the hell do you play PVP?  Is it really worth it?

PS> I ended up playing again this morning and made the 900, but that doesn't change my rant!
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Comments

  • AardvarkPepperAardvarkPepper Posts: 239 Tile Toppler
    progression wins

    "but time"

    PROGRESSION WINS >:)
  • TPF AlexisTPF Alexis Posts: 3,261 Chairperson of the Boards
    I find that if I'm going for 900 instead of 40 wins, I usually have to shield for a bit and do a hop somewhere between 800 and 900. When you hit 800, you become visible to a bunch of much stronger rosters, and if you try to do it in one push, unless you've got some of the faster teams*, you're going to get hit.
    *And actually, right now, with Rogue boosted, it's pretty hard to break through quickly regardless of what you're using. Do keep in mind, this is a really hardcore boost week.
  • DAZ0273DAZ0273 Posts: 3,141 Chairperson of the Boards
    PvP is sometimes simply about when you play. If you play long enough, you will generally start to notice certain trends that you can exploit. For example - for my timezone I know that there are certain times that it is fairly "safe" to put my head above the parapet and go for 900.

    The other key thing to learn is that when hits start coming in, unless you want to engage in full on retal battles you can't salvage it, you will lose, so you need to get out of the firing line and shield.
  • Daredevil217Daredevil217 Posts: 2,237 Chairperson of the Boards
    How do I PVP?

    1- Use a Shield. You were right there several times. A simple 3 hour would have given you what you needed. I used to hate spending HP on shields until I realized that I would spend, what is it? 3400 for a last cover in HFH. By that logic 75 HP seemed like a steal for this scenario. I wouldn’t spend that 3400 now that we have saved covers but back then I would. 

    2- Go wins-based. 40 isn’t that much if you join early and hit 10 seed teams. If you do it with a fast on offense but easy to beat on defense team you will get some nice easy retals to stomp. By the time you do that you’re halfway to your cover with over 2 days remaining. 
  • DormammuDormammu Posts: 3,379 Chairperson of the Boards
    Daredevil217 said:
    1- Use a Shield. You were right there several times. A simple 3 hour would have given you what you needed.
    This is your answer if 40 wins is too much. Once you hit 800 pts its time to shield-hop. Let the retals come and everything will calm down by the time your shield expires, allowing you a quick and painless jump to 900.
  • DAZ0273DAZ0273 Posts: 3,141 Chairperson of the Boards
    The thing is though this scenario is almost devlish in how in pans out, especially if you have not played PvP for years or at least not at the level of getting to 900 and beyond. It literally takes you several few times being beaten over the head to learn the lesson and not be tricked by the siryn calls of the 900 points.

    The typical scenario is:

    Man, I only need about x amount of points to get my 4* cover, I've come this far, I'm going for it!

    Player finds a fight that just about covers what they need. It is probably not a straight forward gimme though of 2* characters and Yelena but it looks winnable...

    Attack!

    One of two things happens: a.) Victory! Wait...why did I get less points than advertised?!?!? Now I need to do another fight... Or b.) Player loses.

    Player returns to main screen to find they have also now lost another -60 points as others attacked them whilst they failed in their attempt to get to 900. Whilst they frantically scramble to think what to do (not shielding) they are attacked for another -40 points and are now much further behind than when they started. Players decides to punish phone.

    We have all been there.
  • heybubheybub Posts: 215 Tile Toppler
    How do I PVP?

    1- Use a Shield. You were right there several times. A simple 3 hour would have given you what you needed. I used to hate spending HP on shields until I realized that I would spend, what is it? 3400 for a last cover in HFH. By that logic 75 HP seemed like a steal for this scenario. I wouldn’t spend that 3400 now that we have saved covers but back then I would. 
    OK, so it seems most people suggest to use a shield to make it to 900.  Like you, I hate spending HP on shields unless it is at the end, and placement would get me that HP back.  But, as you said, I don't seem to have an issue spending 3400 for specific 4* covers, and 75-150 HP is relatively cheap comparatively.  I just need to curb my expectations and expect to spend HP to get the 4* cover, or focus on wins and take a 3 day strategy.

    2- Go wins-based. 40 isn’t that much if you join early and hit 10 seed teams. If you do it with a fast on offense but easy to beat on defense team you will get some nice easy retals to stomp. By the time you do that you’re halfway to your cover with over 2 days remaining. 
    My goto for just about anything is Grockmora.  What are some good high offense/low defense teams?


    Overall, I just think it is very frustrating to go backwards.  I think this makes sense for placement, as you are competing against other teams so you should expect ups and downs.  For progression, this just sucks.  It would be one thing to be 1 win away, and you just cant win to make it.  But to be 1 win away, win, and then have less points than before the match is tinykitty crazy.  I remember they revamped PVP the first time, and they solved this issue, but for some reason they switched it back.  The Progression wins is better then the original PVP, but I still feel this system is lacking.  It really is too bad, because there is some strategy in match ups and difficulty in PVP that you don't get in PVE.
  • Daredevil217Daredevil217 Posts: 2,237 Chairperson of the Boards
    heybub said:
    How do I PVP?

    1- Use a Shield. You were right there several times. A simple 3 hour would have given you what you needed. I used to hate spending HP on shields until I realized that I would spend, what is it? 3400 for a last cover in HFH. By that logic 75 HP seemed like a steal for this scenario. I wouldn’t spend that 3400 now that we have saved covers but back then I would. 
    OK, so it seems most people suggest to use a shield to make it to 900.  Like you, I hate spending HP on shields unless it is at the end, and placement would get me that HP back.  But, as you said, I don't seem to have an issue spending 3400 for specific 4* covers, and 75-150 HP is relatively cheap comparatively.  I just need to curb my expectations and expect to spend HP to get the 4* cover, or focus on wins and take a 3 day strategy.

    2- Go wins-based. 40 isn’t that much if you join early and hit 10 seed teams. If you do it with a fast on offense but easy to beat on defense team you will get some nice easy retals to stomp. By the time you do that you’re halfway to your cover with over 2 days remaining. 
    My goto for just about anything is Grockmora.  What are some good high offense/low defense teams?


    Overall, I just think it is very frustrating to go backwards.  I think this makes sense for placement, as you are competing against other teams so you should expect ups and downs.  For progression, this just sucks.  It would be one thing to be 1 win away, and you just cant win to make it.  But to be 1 win away, win, and then have less points than before the match is tinykitty crazy.  I remember they revamped PVP the first time, and they solved this issue, but for some reason they switched it back.  The Progression wins is better then the original PVP, but I still feel this system is lacking.  It really is too bad, because there is some strategy in match ups and difficulty in PVP that you don't get in PVE.
    2* Stormneto and loaner. Hit the seeds with them and then wait a few hours. You will have a bunch of red nodes of mostly 2* and low 3* teams. Once you use a higher team, then higher teams can see you. Only problem with Stormneto is they are so squishy I couldn’t do 75 wins (my goal) without eating a lot of packs. And if like me, you’re a Hero Point miser, you’re also likely a health pack miser too. 

    Right before champing 5s I had a fully covered 5* Daredevil that I softcapped to 320-330. I would pair him with loaner and 1* Widow. Usually would end up queuing top tier 3* teams but DD could wreck them and stay healed thanks to his yellow passive. I think if you play around you can find a combo that works. 
  • HoundofShadowHoundofShadow Posts: 2,054 Chairperson of the Boards
    1) Timing is important. Know your slice. Sometimes I can hit 900 if I continue to push on without shielding.

    2) Use Whales! to help you win the battles faster than they can defeat you. I was one battle away (fewer than 30 points needed) from hitting 900. but I kept getting hit and my points dropped to ~805 to 820. I was losing ~ 25- 30 points per defeat  on average. I queued those high 40 or 50 points battles and three whales later, I hit 900 points because I was ~20-30 points ahead per defensive loss.

    3) If you are going for progression wins, split up the number of battles. If I start early, I split up my play into multiples of 8 over 3 days.
  • PongiePongie Posts: 1,229 Chairperson of the Boards
    Here’s the thing, no where in the game does it tell you the magic threshold at 800. That’s why players are frustrated by the sudden change (especially those below the 5* tier) and their expectation of pvp is one hell of a ride. You spend the majority of time climbing with success and all of a sudden, the hits comes faster than you can climb.

    A simple shield above 800 is not the be all answer as well. It comes down on who you queue up. What many new to pvp don’t realise, is the displayed point value is cached and frozen in place. When you decide to hop, those targets are likely to not be the amount you earn at the end of the battle. The majority of the time, this is a lot lower (experience pvp players know to queue targets that will climb much higher and hence be worth more/remain to be of significant value to win against). This is another hurdle new players must realise before they can reliably shield hop and come out ahead. 
  • ThaRoadWarriorThaRoadWarrior Posts: 3,069 Chairperson of the Boards
    edited January 24
    I've been hitting 900 without shielding for quite awhile now. Here is what I do: I join right when it opens and push as far as i can in a single push (typically 650, sometimes 575) and then just...stop. Don't shield, don't try and climb any further, just let it ride. I'll know when I'm done because nobody will be worth more than 30-32 points - sometimes i have the health to keep going, but it usually is a losing proposition because when you're seeing values that low it means you're worth more than everyone else. I read one time that if you're seeing 36-38 point opponents, that's about what you're worth. If you're seeing 50-75pt matches your value is low. If you're seeing 30 and below, you're the big fish so watch out. At any rate, push as far as you can, then walk away. Usually, every roster has a "float point," a number of points you seem to stabilize on and stop getting hit. This seems to vary for me based on the boost list, but it's generally 450, 575, occasionally up in 650 range. I was actually floating at 800 overnight in the Doom pvp with Rogue and Chavez boosted.

    Come back after you have the health, and find winnable high-value matches. Generally this will take me to 800 or so. Here is where you find yourself, and here is the trick to break through that glass ceiling- you need to find matches you can win FAST. Not necessarily the best value matches, but matches you can run through. The longer your fights are taking, the more exposed you are to retaliation it appears. So take those 30-35pt fights if you can win them with a quickness. Instead of G4mora, use 5* Lord for the match damage. If you're using G4mora, stun that Rogue so she stops jumping in front and reducing damage. Use AP boosts. Go into those fights with a bunch of blue in the bank so you can stun on turn 2. Once i get that 900pt reward, i just walk away, and let my points fall wherever they end up. I'm usually t100 that way. I'll pop a shield if I want to hang on to points and get my season 10 pack early, but after that i just do whatever for progression.

    For instance, I hit 900 in Fatal Attraction last night, and I'm currently at 600 pts nearly 24 unshielded hours later.

    I've found that the new "800pt ceiling" for me is 1100 - i've only hit 1200pts twice, i can push to 1100, 1130, but then i just get busted back down to 930 when I run out of health. 
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