The great potential of supports

GrimSkald

Jexman said:

A level 5 three or four times a year would still be more interesting than now.

Oh sure, and that statement isn't really a compliant - I just want to make it clear that the level 5 powers of each support will be probably very rare, even if they do increase their availability.  Each Master token gives you a 10% chance to pull a 5th level support, ergo you'll average one of those for every ten master tokens.  One or two per year may be more accurate, it depends on how many Master tokens they give out.

I'll also add that I don't think they'll increase the availability of the Infinity Stones, so we can all-but-discount those.  Right now there are probably around one to two hundred in the game.  That is across all the thousands of players.

Spudgutter

I agree with a couple people here, the 250 level may be a little skewed and disingenuous, but not on purpose.  Good on OP for the thought.  

That said, if they make availability much, much easier, i can maybe start to get behind supports.   Right now i have less than half of them, and of those, most are 2* and below.

broll 

I don't want 8 layers of RNG.  As long as the moves continue to be RNG based I refuse to take them even remotely seriously.

I may not understand what you are saying, moves are rng based?  As in the board itself?  I would think increasing you chances of more AP would be a good thing, especially because the moves and cascades for the AI are random.  Look at the 5e for the current PvE.  I can beat that node fairly easily, unless the AI is able to get enough black AP for Vulture to start up is AP gen.  Then it can go downhill real quick.  And that basically applies to every match, and even moreso for higher PvP matches, where a bad cascade ruins your entire hop.

Anyone who recognizes my name and my posts on here, they should know by now that i have always been an advocate for players to be able to do more, with less, in less time played.  Easier pve matches and easier pvp hops for newer players means it is easier for them to get/stay invested.  The more invested, the more they stick around.  Supports have the potential to help with that, but the rollout of availability and Riso earned did not lead us to that.  They finally addressed Riso (still could be tweaked a little higher imo), now they need to adress availability.  Fix that, and lets see.

bluewolf said:

RE:  Supports in PVP....Do you think your available opponents are a mess now?  Imagine what things look like if Supports are part of it.  Although the potential for trolling is great.  Max one of the Supports that fortify tiles all the time and toss it on a defensive troll team.  Watch on Line as your opponent's matches drag on.  They get hit a bunch of times while waiting for the *&$! match to get over with.  Such fun!  "Look, I left a grill out.  Hee hee hee..."

For those that may not be aware, the game did not always have Team ups and TU tiles.  That was a new mechanic that was introduced. When they did, the opposition also brought in 3 TU, just as we were able to select 3.  It was horrible. The AI would have several cheap and easy powers, it was like playing against 6 opponents. 

*IF* they get around to implementing supports into pvp, and make sure they are only attached on your side, i would be ok with that, see my statement above about making things easier for people.  If they mess it up and it goes the way you envision, that will just be one more thing that they screwed up in the rollout of supports.  Fingers crossed they dont mess up

bbigler

GrimSkald said:

Jexman said:

A level 5 three or four times a year would still be more interesting than now.

Oh sure, and that statement isn't really a compliant - I just want to make it clear that the level 5 powers of each support will be probably very rare, even if they do increase their availability.  Each Master token gives you a 10% chance to pull a 5th level support, ergo you'll average one of those for every ten master tokens.  One or two per year may be more accurate, it depends on how many Master tokens they give out.

I'll also add that I don't think they'll increase the availability of the Infinity Stones, so we can all-but-discount those.  Right now there are probably around one to two hundred in the game.  That is across all the thousands of players.

Very true.  I realized it's gonna be rare for 1 player to have many of the aforementioned supports at level 5.  But with improved acquisition rates it is reasonable for many players to get them to level 4, and even at reduced odds of getting AP (like 60%), it's still a big AP boost.  The combos I "showcased" are god-mode and if someone can obtain them, they will have a distinct advantage over everyone else in PVE. 

Level 4 AP Boosts:

Yaro Root - 67% for 6 Green

Corvus Glave - 62% for 3 Purple

Quantum Realm - 60% for 5 Purple

Spider-Sense - 58% for 3 Green

Proxima Midnight - 62% for 3 Red

Ebony Maw - 62% for 3 Black

Cull Obsidian - 62% for 3 Green

Vintage Shield - 62% for 3 Yellow

Milano - 58% for 3 Black & 62% for 3 Purple

Korg - 58% for 3 Yellow

Rank 5 Perks for AP Boosts:

Tinkerer, Kimoyo Beads, Soul Stone, Hope Summers

bbigler

GrimSkald said:

I'll also add that I don't think they'll increase the availability of the Infinity Stones, so we can all-but-discount those.  Right now there are probably around one to two hundred in the game.  That is across all the thousands of players.

After looking over all of the supports, I think the infinity stones are disappointing. They seem below average to me, so don't worry about not getting them. Only the soul stone had a notable perk I thought. There also appears to be power creep already with supports. 

broll

bbigler said:

broll said:

Or veterans finally say I'm done and quit paying and/or playing.

Back to the OP.  I don't like those at all.  One of the major issues I have with supports is the % chance to do anything at all.  I want to see them make support bonus to be always on bonus that aren't based on more RNG.  Stuff like:
- x% damage increase of all moves (or a particular move if tied to the character boost)
- x% increase to match damage
- Powers for this character cost x less AP
- Add's the option to use x move on this character (similar to the Task Master new feature to pick powers or adds a 4th move)

I don't want 8 layers of RNG.  As long as the moves continue to be RNG based I refuse to take them even remotely seriously.

Not all supports are % chance. There are some that increase all damage from powers by X or decrease enemy powers by X, and many, many increase match damage, which is gauranteed.  I don't mind luck being a part of a game, I think it makes it more interesting, even though it can be frustrating at times. This isn't chess......it's match-3 gambling. I like the game because the randomness gives me a puzzle to solve. 

My experience with supports has been this: I bought a HFH offer one day and got a level 4 Vibranium Ore, which I leveled a bit and attached to Strange. It worked great and made a real difference in pve. I kept leveling it to 200 and now it's on Medusa, which adds 709 damage to her CD tile. Now with my Kitty + Grocket + Medusa combo, I use Chimichanga at level 150 and Avengers Tower at level 100 to fortify those Strikes. It's a 35% and 32% chance each turn, but it works! Despite the RNG. 

I know they don't all have RNG, but the static ones have static damage rather than a percent based.  Meaning they're either going to be way too strong for low level player or way too weak for high level players.  They have their %s totally backwards.  Example:
Proxima Midnight (My highest *, stats based on level 1):
Rank 1: Start of match there's a 5.00% chance to create a strength 16 strike tile [RNG & Static Damage]
Rank 2: The supported character's base Red match damage is increased by 13.  [Static Damage]
Rank 3: The supported character's maximum health is increased by 220. [Static Increase]
Rank 4:  At the start of battle there's a 10.00% chance to gain 3 Red AP [RNG]

I don't have any of the newer ones, so from the grayed out section ( Yaro Root - no clue what level they are based on but based on the stats I'm assuming max level and stars)
Rank 1:  When the supported character is healed they heal an extra 1568 health. [ Static Damage]
Rank 3: At the start of battle there's a 80.00% chance to gain 6 Green AP [RNG]
Rank 5: The supported character's base Green match damage is increased by 531. [Static Increase]

So in those two examples there's not a single one that doesn't have one of the two flaws I mentioned.  Looking at the Yaro Root ones (since they seem to be the highest level):
Rank 1 - Is 1658 health going to make much a difference on a 5* with ~50k or more health?  Maybe but not nearly the impact of that health on a low level champed 3* with ~10k health  That's ~7% vs 3%  Over double the effectiveness for a lower level player.
Rank 3 - I already mentioned my distaste for RNG, but putting that asside 4 out 5 times you'll get 6 Green AP.  So you could fire a lower green move instantly and half the time to get megabombs.  That's gonna make PvP impossible to predict what's gonna happen unless you take 5 minutes before the match looking at their boosts or a few minutes during looking at if/how their moves are modified.  If PvP wasn't speed based sure, but it is for anyone that cares about rank.
Rank 5 - See my comment about about how this will be way more effective on the lower the character and way less the higher the character.

bbigler

broll said:

I know they don't all have RNG, but the static ones have static damage rather than a percent based.  Meaning they're either going to be way too strong for low level player or way too weak for high level players.  They have their %s totally backwards.  Example:
Proxima Midnight (My highest *, stats based on level 1):
Rank 1: Start of match there's a 5.00% chance to create a strength 16 strike tile [RNG & Static Damage]
Rank 2: The supported character's base Red match damage is increased by 13.  [Static Damage]
Rank 3: The supported character's maximum health is increased by 220. [Static Increase]
Rank 4:  At the start of battle there's a 10.00% chance to gain 3 Red AP [RNG]

I don't have any of the newer ones, so from the grayed out section ( Yaro Root - no clue what level they are based on but based on the stats I'm assuming max level and stars)
Rank 1:  When the supported character is healed they heal an extra 1568 health. [ Static Damage]
Rank 3: At the start of battle there's a 80.00% chance to gain 6 Green AP [RNG]
Rank 5: The supported character's base Green match damage is increased by 531. [Static Increase]

So in those two examples there's not a single one that doesn't have one of the two flaws I mentioned.  Looking at the Yaro Root ones (since they seem to be the highest level):
Rank 1 - Is 1658 health going to make much a difference on a 5* with ~50k or more health?  Maybe but not nearly the impact of that health on a low level champed 3* with ~10k health  That's ~7% vs 3%  Over double the effectiveness for a lower level player.
Rank 3 - I already mentioned my distaste for RNG, but putting that asside 4 out 5 times you'll get 6 Green AP.  So you could fire a lower green move instantly and half the time to get megabombs.  That's gonna make PvP impossible to predict what's gonna happen unless you take 5 minutes before the match looking at their boosts or a few minutes during looking at if/how their moves are modified.  If PvP wasn't speed based sure, but it is for anyone that cares about rank.
Rank 5 - See my comment about about how this will be way more effective on the lower the character and way less the higher the character.

Ok, that's a good point that few people have talked about. First, I agree that some 5* support perks make little difference to 5* champs. Of course, the lower you go in tiers, the bigger the difference. But we don't expect 2* players to get 5* supports. If the acquisition of these different support levels lined up with a player's tier, it would make more sense. 
Your suggestion of making static changes a percentage instead is not a bad idea. Instead of a support increasing damage by 1000, it could increase it by 50%, for example. Instead of increasing match damage by 500, it could increase it by 100%. Instead of an 80% chance of 6 green, you simply get 4 green instead. This would make supports better, but I would bet the developers wanted some support effects to be random so that when they do go off, you get that happy feeling like winning a scratch-off ticket. I believe that endorphin causing mechanic is fundamental to their game to keep players coming back for more. This is true for their tokens and vaults, plus the luck of the tile drops. 
As for PVP, there's no reason to complain about something they haven't done. I don't think anyone wants supports enabled for pvp opponents. And BTW, I can play PVP leisurely to get top 25/50 rewards. Speed is only necessary for the top ranks. 

froggerjohn

Support tokens are rarer than 5* covers, and yet most of the time I open one, there's nothing but disappointment at yet another useless duplicate.

That's REALLY terrible.

And it's not like I have most of them. Only 17 so far, 5 or so I paid $$ for. But I can't even remember the last time I opened a non-dup.

So I don't even open them any more. I've got 4 basics sitting there, hoping some day that they'll do something like let duplicates increase the level of an existing support.

HoundofShadow

Currently, the odds for Beginner and Advanced Tokens are the same for "Normal" Support Store and "Special" Support Store.

However, the odds for Rank 5 supports in Master Token are world apart for both stores.

Normal Support Store: 1:10 for Rank 5
Special Support Store: 1:27 for Rank 5
It's 10% vs 3.7%.

Even though they've been brainstorming on how to increase acquisition rate, this is what I might see happening to "balance" the increase of acquisition rate:

1) I don't expect them to add post-Infinity War Rank 4/5 Support into "Normal" Support Store that soon. I mean, who's going to buy from bundle or vault if they can get Rank 5 support at 1:10 odds in normal support store versus 1:27 odds from special support store?

2) They come up with a new currency equivalent to CP to open support tokens. Or, CP will be used to open support token.

3) Adjustment to odds in normal support store. Normal support store see a decrease in odds.

I won't put my hope up too much. History has shown that the devs will usually balance the equation when they increase the outflow of something. This balance of equation will almost always cause an eruption at Mount MPQ.

smkspy

Shield level 10 is suppose to launch sometime in the future. Bet those plans have been drafted too. 

wymtime

spidyjedi84 said:

NotBAMF said:

More reason to hope that they never add Support features to PVP.

Or more reason veterans take Supports as a serious potential game changer that will upset the meta of their favorite new 5-star characters and have to rethink how they play instead of burying their heads in the sand and complaining about a feature of the game they don't like because they can't immediately climb to the top of that roster.

I would take supports more seriously if I could actually earn the new supports at level 4 or 5.  I would be happy to use my 1.5 million red iso, but I only have 24 of 45 supports and only 1 4* support that is really old.

bluewolf

HoundofShadow said:

Currently, the odds for Beginner and Advanced Tokens are the same for "Normal" Support Store and "Special" Support Store.

However, the odds for Rank 5 supports in Master Token are world apart for both stores.

Normal Support Store: 1:10 for Rank 5
Special Support Store: 1:27 for Rank 5
It's 10% vs 3.7%.

I’m just going to point out that it has been impossible to acquire a Master token for the Normal Store since the launch of Supports, 8 months ago now.  Maybe that rarity was implemented to make the Special ones more enticing, but it’s another area of frustration for players.  The relative odds are meaningless when one kind of token is completely inaccessible.

The rockett

smkspy said:

Shield level 10 is suppose to launch sometime in the future. Bet those plans have been drafted too. 

I laughed so hard at this. Wonder if those plan will ever make the light of day. 

HoundofShadow

Many like to compare Supports with Comic Covers. They mentioned how easy it is to acquire character covers via progression or placement rewards. 

On the flip side, have this thought occurred  before:

Drawing a Rank 4 or Rank 5 Support from Master token is equivalent to drawing a 4* or 5* at 13 covers. Does it make sense to make Support rare? 

broll

The rockett said:

smkspy said:

Shield level 10 is suppose to launch sometime in the future. Bet those plans have been drafted too. 

I laughed so hard at this. Wonder if those plan will ever make the light of day. 

SCL 10 is becoming the Duke Nukem Forever or Half-Life 3 of this game. Hopefully this doesn’t end like either of those have, but I’m losing hope. If soon is over 2 years I’d like to know what they wouldn’t consider soon: a decade, a century, an epoch?

Dragon_Nexus

smkspy said:

Shield level 10 is suppose to launch sometime in the future. Bet those plans have been drafted too. 

Honestly, I imagine it's all but done and sorted math-wise. I imagine it could be launched tomorrow, but the only thing holding it back is the number of players that can go in.

Honestly, with my 5* roster I find CL9 to be a struggle at times. I need more higher level 4*s and some more 5* covers (not like that's going to happen) in order to make it more straight forward. CL10 would be dire.

I'd actually rather they go back and bump up CL8's rewards just a little bit.

DeNappa

bbigler said:

broll said:

I know they don't all have RNG, but the static ones have static damage rather than a percent based.  Meaning they're either going to be way too strong for low level player or way too weak for high level players.  They have their %s totally backwards.  Example:
Proxima Midnight (My highest *, stats based on level 1):
Rank 1: Start of match there's a 5.00% chance to create a strength 16 strike tile [RNG & Static Damage]
Rank 2: The supported character's base Red match damage is increased by 13.  [Static Damage]
Rank 3: The supported character's maximum health is increased by 220. [Static Increase]
Rank 4:  At the start of battle there's a 10.00% chance to gain 3 Red AP [RNG]

I don't have any of the newer ones, so from the grayed out section ( Yaro Root - no clue what level they are based on but based on the stats I'm assuming max level and stars)
Rank 1:  When the supported character is healed they heal an extra 1568 health. [ Static Damage]
Rank 3: At the start of battle there's a 80.00% chance to gain 6 Green AP [RNG]
Rank 5: The supported character's base Green match damage is increased by 531. [Static Increase]

So in those two examples there's not a single one that doesn't have one of the two flaws I mentioned.  Looking at the Yaro Root ones (since they seem to be the highest level):
Rank 1 - Is 1658 health going to make much a difference on a 5* with ~50k or more health?  Maybe but not nearly the impact of that health on a low level champed 3* with ~10k health  That's ~7% vs 3%  Over double the effectiveness for a lower level player.
Rank 3 - I already mentioned my distaste for RNG, but putting that asside 4 out 5 times you'll get 6 Green AP.  So you could fire a lower green move instantly and half the time to get megabombs.  That's gonna make PvP impossible to predict what's gonna happen unless you take 5 minutes before the match looking at their boosts or a few minutes during looking at if/how their moves are modified.  If PvP wasn't speed based sure, but it is for anyone that cares about rank.
Rank 5 - See my comment about about how this will be way more effective on the lower the character and way less the higher the character.

Ok, that's a good point that few people have talked about. First, I agree that some 5* support perks make little difference to 5* champs. Of course, the lower you go in tiers, the bigger the difference. But we don't expect 2* players to get 5* supports. If the acquisition of these different support levels lined up with a player's tier, it would make more sense. 
Your suggestion of making static changes a percentage instead is not a bad idea. Instead of a support increasing damage by 1000, it could increase it by 50%, for example. Instead of increasing match damage by 500, it could increase it by 100%. Instead of an 80% chance of 6 green, you simply get 4 green instead. This would make supports better, but I would bet the developers wanted some support effects to be random so that when they do go off, you get that happy feeling like winning a scratch-off ticket. I believe that endorphin causing mechanic is fundamental to their game to keep players coming back for more. This is true for their tokens and vaults, plus the luck of the tile drops. 
As for PVP, there's no reason to complain about something they haven't done. I don't think anyone wants supports enabled for pvp opponents. And BTW, I can play PVP leisurely to get top 25/50 rewards. Speed is only necessary for the top ranks. 

There are already a few % based supports. Like 'take x% less damage from matches' (Vibranium ore, Vintage shield, for example) or '<color> match damage is increased by x%' (Ancestral plane). But they are few and far between, and there should be more.

broll

Dragon_Nexus said:

smkspy said:

Shield level 10 is suppose to launch sometime in the future. Bet those plans have been drafted too. 

Honestly, I imagine it's all but done and sorted math-wise. I imagine it could be launched tomorrow, but the only thing holding it back is the number of players that can go in.

Honestly, with my 5* roster I find CL9 to be a struggle at times. I need more higher level 4*s and some more 5* covers (not like that's going to happen) in order to make it more straight forward. CL10 would be dire.

I'd actually rather they go back and bump up CL8's rewards just a little bit.

That seems extremely unlikely.  The idea of a small company spending development cycles on content they know won't be ready to release soon is extremely bad for ROI (return on investment).  In addition if they made this back when the other SCLs were made, even 9, there could potentially need to be changes or restructuring of the work they already did but never released.  If they made it back when SCLs launched they would need to: Restructure points/rewards as they've changed since then, add the 5E node as that didn't exist, remove tapping, etc.  In addition I get the impression based on some bugs/issues that have occurred that they have to manually structure certain things for each event and each SCL combo, so they would also need to add the new PvEs that have been added (granted that's not a lot but still) and fix some to all of the things previously mentioned up to like 12 (or however many PvE events there are) times each.  Finally what happens if the game were to go out of business before the launched it.  The fact that they basically threw development time into the trash can could one of the causes they went out of business.  Rather than developing things to implement now to keep their customers happy they worked on something they knew wasn't ready.

TL;DR
Developing code not ready to launch for some time

Neuromancer

bbigler said:

What I meant by this is that when support distribution is improved in the future, then 5* players will likely be the first group to get them to high levels.

They already have them at high levels. Just take a look at @nycjonny's roster, or anyone in that guild. They have 4* & 5* maxed supports, and some of those are infinity stones.

//Added Player Mention To Comply With Rule 7 -Brigby