What's bad about 4* pvp?

tiomono
tiomono Posts: 1,654 Chairperson of the Boards
in MPQ General Discussion
Is a 1-1-1 4* loaner really that bad for early rosters to play with or against? Are they too weak or too strong compared to 3* loaners? I dont understand how they would drive newer players away from versus events.

What is it in particular that you like or dislike about 4* pvp? What suggestions do you think could improve it?

For me I have all but about 7 4*'s champed. I love 4* versus events compared to 3*. 3's just do not pack the punch that a 4 does. 

I made this from the thoughts in the December sneak peek. It seems we are more interested in discussing this than anything else in the sneak peek.
Discuss.
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Comments

  • Dragon_Nexus
    Dragon_Nexus Posts: 3,701 Chairperson of the Boards
    With okoye, any 3* can pack a punch. Falcon managed to down three characters with his purple AoE. Did over 24k.

    With regards to 4*s though, a high level boosted 4* can rival a 5*, no worries. Some even end up being more powerful than a champed 5*.

    So it can be a bit sucky if you don't have that particular 4*, but I feel if you're in 3* land you're likely to be put with other 3*s with a loaner 4, or an under covered one. If you have that 4* fully covered and champed, you should be fine. If you're in 5* land it's actually harder since most teams I see have a highly levelled 4* to bring to the table.
  • Borstock
    Borstock Posts: 2,733 Chairperson of the Boards
    edited December 2018
    I rarely had real trouble using a loaner 4 in PvP as long as I had other boosted options that could do good damage. The only time I did was when 5* Thanos came out. Bringing a loaner to that fight could get tricky because of how quickly death could be courted. 

    And now that I'm in 5* land, with Thorkoye, I just treat it like a 2v3. 
  • HoundofShadow
    HoundofShadow Posts: 8,004 Chairperson of the Boards
    edited December 2018
    If I remember correctly, when I started playing PvPs in my early days, my first 4* PvP was either Vulture or Medusa. I was using Juggernaut and IM35 as my main and it took me quite a long time to complete a round/fight. 4* abilities are slightly more complex than 3*'s as well, I suppose. That is why they changed 1* Spider-Man's abilities because they were slightly complex. 

    Speaking as a player with fully rostered champed 3*, I love 4* PvPs because they help to lower my MMR significantly.  Also, I can save on healthpacks since the loaner will be tanking 2 or 3 colours. Even with 50% of the champed 3* back then, I still like 4* PvP based om the above reasons.

  • tiomono
    tiomono Posts: 1,654 Chairperson of the Boards
    I'm just confused why we do not get them more often. Even if they did like two 3* events then a 4* then back to two 3* I would be happier.

    4* is the most bloated tier so it would be nice to see all those events the dev team named and laid out artwork for more than when the character is released.
  • TPF Alexis
    TPF Alexis Posts: 3,826 Chairperson of the Boards
    I felt like it depended on who the 4* was. With strong defensive Characters featured (Medusa, C&D, C4ge), it can easily turn into a horrible slog. When it's more offensively-focused Characters (C4rol, Riri, Mordo), it's usually a lot of fun.
  • HoundofShadow
    HoundofShadow Posts: 8,004 Chairperson of the Boards
    My guess would be those special themes pvp that you proposed are probably reserved for special events or celebrations. 


  • Phumade
    Phumade Posts: 2,496 Chairperson of the Boards
    The reason we don’t have more 4* pvp is because less people play them.  They have all the engagement metrics since the start of the game.  They know exactly how many matches got played for every event since the lights got turned on.  

    Its the the same reason we don’t have the pay to enter pvp anymore. (Pay 200hp to play smaller bracket,  better prizes)

    with that said, they don’t make the theme events very exciting or compelling.  No marketing no story.  Take fortnite,  they make each season a compelling event by itself.  People want to know what up with the cube,  where the lake go etc..

    people who play play fortnite are conditioned to look for new changes every season.  MPq players look forward to off season So they can skip events or play less
  • DAZ0273
    DAZ0273 Posts: 10,283 Chairperson of the Boards
    I normally enjoy playing 4* PvP but I did notice when playing the second run of Valkyrie that not having her champed was a massive disadvantage if you have 4* champ MMR otherwise. I had her at 209 but suffered badly and have never lost so many matches in a PvP. Of course if you are on the other side you probably have a lot of fun depending on how your MMR treats you and what targets are around.

    The equalling effect of loaners is fine for new release PvP but after that as more average player rosters have had time to get covers/champ, it is the second time round that looks like it is where the pain is at if RNG has not been your friend. I'm guessing that is where the engagement drops off.




  • broll
    broll Posts: 4,732 Chairperson of the Boards
    As a wins based PvP player in 5* tier the difficulty of getting max progression with wins jumps dramatically.

    I'd be OK if they did them more only if they also gave better rewards to go with the extra effort.
  • Phumade
    Phumade Posts: 2,496 Chairperson of the Boards
    broll said:
    As a wins based PvP player in 5* tier the difficulty of getting max progression with wins jumps dramatically.

    I'd be OK if they did them more only if they also gave better rewards to go with the extra effort.
    Not really.  4* pvp means. Most 5* players will get the 4* feature boosted to over 450,  and they will  be able to use the support tier 5* to reinforce the big 4*

    I find 4* pvp a lot easier as a 5* player, specifically because at high levels the 4* powers are a lot stronger than 5* equivalents at the same char level.

    personally, 3/4 distinction is irrelevant.   All that matters is whether that character gets boosted over 450.  
  • The rockett
    The rockett Posts: 2,016 Chairperson of the Boards
    Love 4* events.  Many of them have synergies with 5* which give us a different look and feel.  I would say probably 95-99% of the time with 3* events, I would never use any of the 3* powers.  Some that we just had (falcon and Cyi) I did, but most times they are ignored and just there to be for the ride.  
  • bbigler
    bbigler Posts: 2,111 Chairperson of the Boards
    With my new roster, which has 6 x 4* Champs, I see no real gameplay difference between 3* and 4* PVP.  I still use the same 2-person combo (Cardusa) no matter who it is.  The 3*Fist PVP I'll try out RocketCat (Kitty+Grocket), but the point is that a 1/1/1 is nearly useless, whether 3* or 4*.  For 3* players, that 1/1/1 4* Loaner is a free meat shield though.  I would like to see more 4* PVP and even 5* PVP.  The MMR does a pretty good job, so it should always be a fair fight. 
  • broll
    broll Posts: 4,732 Chairperson of the Boards
    Phumade said:
    broll said:
    As a wins based PvP player in 5* tier the difficulty of getting max progression with wins jumps dramatically.

    I'd be OK if they did them more only if they also gave better rewards to go with the extra effort.
    Not really.  4* pvp means. Most 5* players will get the 4* feature boosted to over 450,  and they will  be able to use the support tier 5* to reinforce the big 4*

    I find 4* pvp a lot easier as a 5* player, specifically because at high levels the 4* powers are a lot stronger than 5* equivalents at the same char level.

    personally, 3/4 distinction is irrelevant.   All that matters is whether that character gets boosted over 450.  
    You can't say not really to my personal experience...

    It's harder for wins based high tier players for two reasons:
    1.  A match with a 3* and 2 5*s is going to be quicker than a 4* boosted over 450 and 2 5*s.
    2.  When you're playing for wins you often use the loaner far more than your character so the fact that the 4* is better than a 3* doesn't help that much in that situation.  Constantly re-health packing the 3* or 4* only makes it harder to get to 75 or force you buy health packs.  There might be a few teams where this would be worth it, but more often than not I'd end up using the 4* till they die, then switching in the loaner till the main heals up.
  • Phumade
    Phumade Posts: 2,496 Chairperson of the Boards
    broll said:
    Phumade said:
      
    You can't say not really to my personal experience...

    It's harder for wins based high tier players for two reasons:
    1.  A match with a 3* and 2 5*s is going to be quicker than a 4* boosted over 450 and 2 5*s.
    2.  When you're playing for wins you often use the loaner far more than your character so the fact that the 4* is better than a 3* doesn't help that much in that situation.  Constantly re-health packing the 3* or 4* only makes it harder to get to 75 or force you buy health packs.  There might be a few teams where this would be worth it, but more often than not I'd end up using the 4* till they die, then switching in the loaner till the main heals up.
    Huh, the snipers in s1,2,3,4,5 seems to get to 75 wins far faster than anyone else, and they don't seem to have any issues getting multiple hits in a 5m window against other equivalently level 5*. Nah, never had to bother with loaners in 75 win push. If your really in the 5* tier (not just 2 or 3 chars, but a legitimate 5* player with access to the complete tier) then 460 5* are no more of hindrance than max level 3*. Never really had to worry about the health pack issues. with over 20 5*, all bellow 465, Plenty of chars to rotate around. especially with boosted 4*. Its easy to manage the color tanking priorities.
  • Rockwell75
    Rockwell75 Posts: 268 Mover and Shaker
    The worst thing about 4* PVP is that there isn't enough of them.
  • Tony_Foot
    Tony_Foot Posts: 1,814 Chairperson of the Boards
    Hate 4* pvp unless it's a new release event. Don't like the extra time it takes with a boosted 4* in the middle, don't like the extra damage I will end up taking and I don't like them tanking a colour which means more health packs.

    I thought I wanted and would like 4* pvp but I don't. I hit 1200 now but would happily stop pvp at the first CP reward if 4* pvp became regular. I'd rather see a shake up to pvp rather than just changing to 4* pvp.
  • Phumade
    Phumade Posts: 2,496 Chairperson of the Boards
    Tony_Foot said:

    I thought I wanted and would like 4* pvp but I don't. I hit 1200 now but would happily stop pvp at the first CP reward if 4* pvp became regular. I'd rather see a shake up to pvp rather than just changing to 4* pvp.
    Its a different game with very different combo relationships, and a lot of new different mmr floats and tanking combos.

    its like playing shooters in only office buildings or tigh quarter matches,  and then getting a new savanna open plains match.  You have to leverage  new power combos and a different approach.
  • walkerdog
    walkerdog Posts: 8 Just Dropped In
    tiomono said:
    Is a 1-1-1 4* loaner really that bad for early rosters to play with or against? Are they too weak or too strong compared to 3* loaners? I dont understand how they would drive newer players away from versus events.

    What is it in particular that you like or dislike about 4* pvp? What suggestions do you think could improve it?

    For me I have all but about 7 4*'s champed. I love 4* versus events compared to 3*. 3's just do not pack the punch that a 4 does. 

    I made this from the thoughts in the December sneak peek. It seems we are more interested in discussing this than anything else in the sneak peek.
    Discuss.
    Bad things, IMO:
    Sort characters have really cool synergy and solid power levels on their own (Grocket, America Chavez, Rogue) but most of successful 4* pvp seems to be playing the powered up heros for that week who are best together - it's not that that's awful by itself, but when it's generally very rewarded compared to looking for more general synergy, it gets boring.

    I also dislike that unrelated characters have such great synergy, but that's more of a pet peeve. I like that Medusa/Lockheed/(quake/bb/kk) have great synergy - they're inhumans, Lockheed does something that feels like what he does in the comics, etc. Grocket + GoG is a neat flavor, IF/LC is one of my favorite parts of the game (although I would like a more natural synergy between them the way the 3*s work together along with the buff to abilities for having both), and that sort of thing are cool! However, I dislike how some of the best teams in the current PVPs are like, Mordo + a random other buffed character + IF. There's no real flavor there!

    Carnage/Medusa/(Mr FF, Kitty, Grocket, pick your favorite third or a powered up character) is another team that, while very fun to play and cool (giving the other team fairly good attack tiles is still going to be really good for you!?!?!?!?) is not as cool because there's just very little story-based reason for them to be so good together. I'd rather than this sort synergy was present for Spiderman + the symbiotes, and the Medusa had just a little less synergy with this team and more with an inhuman + Human Torch set of characters.

    I dislike how much difference in power/usability there is in the top 10-15 4*s and the middle tier and the bottom 10 or so. Why isn't this fixed, even if they did something as little as "buff the bottom X characters by 20%, the middle X by 10%" and see how it went?!

    Regarding synergy, I don't enjoy when a character is viable if you have X synergy, but literally only if you do or if they're powered up that week. One of the bigger offenders are the webheads needing a ton of web tiles to even be decent - either buff them so that the payoff is really worth it, or make the webtile ability more of a 2ndary or passive effect while giving them an okay non-web-related effect.

    Some of these are broader complaints, but don't make 1-2 of a characters abilities so niche or useless that they're nearly unplayable or only very situationaly playable. For example, Dr. Strange's purple isn't great at what it's supposed to do for the cost (I know he's a 3/5*, not a 4*!), but it also doesn't have an alternative if there's nothing to use it on - if the enemy has no specials, make it do like 1-2k damage, or a 1 turn stun, or generate 3-4 blue - nothing super-powerful for the price, but it gives it some utility.

    To summarize:
    1. Even out power levels so we're not seeing so much of the same heroes over and over in a given PVE - buff the mid and lower tier viable characters, even if it's just very simple buffs to begin since that could be timeconsuming to try to do one by one.
    2. Make more flavorful synergy between related characters - the inhumans, FF, Xmen, Avengers, Marvel Knights, Sinister Six and so on should all be better together than with mixed groups - for someone like Wolverine who has been on 99% of teams in the universe including hydra, the hand, the cabal, the illuminati, GoG, imperial guard, magia, and 1-2 others I'm forgetting (I'm not serious about this please please don't roast me), give him a primary affiliation where he gets a full buff for X-Men (my pick at least) and a lesser (2/3? 1/2?) buff for the lesser memberships.
    3. Don't require synergy for a character to be viable
    4. Give extremely situational abilities a backup effect if their main purpose isn't useful.

  • whitecat31
    whitecat31 Posts: 579 Critical Contributor
    edited December 2018
    From a  well established 5 star player perspective, if a four star character is not used for pvp, the four star character is just a paperweight needed for the rare chance it is used in essential nodes in pve. 
    In many cases with a four star getting released a pattern occurs. 
    You fight for it's covers in PVE and PVP placement. You then use the four star character in the next pvp and next PVE. You usually pick up another four star cover in each event as an essential. The next season you get a cover as a 2000 point reward in the shield simulator. 
    After that it never sees the light a day again, except for PVE essential nodes where the only advantage of it being strong is whether you have to use a health pack or not, due to your thanos doing damage to your own team.
    Take away the need for it as an essential PVP choice, and the only motivation to champ and level a four star is if it is a feeder for five star covers.

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