Experimental Frenzy doesnt work with jump start [Investigating]

wereotter

When I have Experimental Frenzy in play and exile a card from my hand, the card correctly goes to my graveyard, but none of its stored mana goes toward casting spells in my graveyard with jump start making those spells impossible to cast. 

//Edited Title - Tombstone

Laeuftbeidir

Looks more like intended behavior, doesn't it? Jumpstart takes mana from your exile, but you can't exile your cards

wereotter

I don't think it is intended considering the support also gives spells with jumpstart 3 mana when they go to the graveyard. I think it's supposed to enable you to exile spells with jumpstart to pay for spells already in your graveyard without losing the card in the process.

However if this is intended behavior, then I would have to say its a poorly designed card as it's red rather than black or green, the colors who want to throw creatures into the graveyard for undergrowth.

[Deleted User]

I dont think it was intended behavior as it actually completely shuts down a jump-start deck. 

Jumpstart ability:
"This card can be cast from your graveyard. Whenever you exile a card from hand, if this is the first spell with jump start in your graveyard, this spell gains mana equal to the mana on that card. If you cast this card from your graveyard, exile it.""

Experimental Frenzy Part 1: "whenever you exile a card from your hand, that card goes to the graveyard instead of being exiled"

Great! I can put more cards in the graveyard.. but the problem with part 1 is that jumpstart cards in the graveyard only gain mana when exiling a card from hand, but now this completely prevents mana gain to jumpstart cards in the graveyard. 

Experimental Frenzy Part 2: "whenever a spell with jump-start enters your graveyard, that card gains 3 mana." 

So you would expect this part to provide some benefit or re-enable mana to jumpstart cards in the graveyard. However, it only gives THAT jumpstart card (the one you exiled from hand and sent to the graveyard, per part1) 3 mana. In other words, if you exile jumpstart card #1 from your hand, it will only ever get 3 mana and be stuck in your graveyard with 3 mana. 

The fixis to change the 2nd part of experimental frenzy

"whenever a spell with jump-start enters your graveyard, ALL JUMPSTART cardS IN YOUR GRAVEYARD gain 3 mana." 

I guess you could even remove the "in your graveyard" part and still wouldnt create a broken card. But it really depends on the future sets.

Tl:dr: experimental frenzy has been implemented incorrectly i believe. 

wereotter

That could be correct too. I think I assumed that when I removed a card from my hand with mana, regardless of if that card has jump start or not, it would charge spells in my graveyard with jump start while not going into exile, allowing me to remove other cards with jump start from hand to pay for ones in my graveyard, making the mechanic function more like it does in the paper game.

Your solution may be correct, but I'm thinking it's a coding error, and the cards removed from hand while Experimental Frenzy is in play are still supposed to charge cards in the graveyard while not going to exile. We saw a similar problem with Oketra's Attendant not going to the graveyard and creating an activated gem when cycled back when Amonkhet launched, which is why I assumed that was the problem.

[Deleted User]

wereotter said:

That could be correct too. I think I assumed that when I removed a card from my hand with mana, regardless of if that card has jump start or not, it would charge spells in my graveyard with jump start while not going into exile, allowing me to remove other cards with jump start from hand to pay for ones in my graveyard, making the mechanic function more like it does in the paper game.

Your solution may be correct, but I'm thinking it's a coding error, and the cards removed from hand while Experimental Frenzy is in play are still supposed to charge cards in the graveyard while not going to exile. We saw a similar problem with Oketra's Attendant not going to the graveyard and creating an activated gem when cycled back when Amonkhet launched, which is why I assumed that was the problem.

Oh, now that you mention it, I had actually considered that in the very beginning when I used the card. I also believed it should function the way you presented it. But then i read that card and the jump-start text over and over and came to two speculative conclusions:

1. Experimental Frenzy Part 1: "whenever you exile a card from your hand, that card goes to the graveyard instead of being exiled" This last part suggests the card completely bypasses the exile pile; thus, per the jumpstart ability ("Whenever you exile a card from hand, if this is the first spell with jump start in your graveyard, this spell gains mana equal to the mana on that card."), it is impossible.

However, if they erase the phrase "Instead of being exiled" and re-code the card, it might work.

2. I thought it might be too difficult for Oktagon to achieve without creating a bug storm.

wereotter

Right, I get that, and that was kind of stated before. However, then there's the second part that when a card with jump start goes to your graveyard, it gets three mana. Why give cards going to your graveyard mana when there's literally no way to give them any further mana by removing cards from your hand? And, if it is intended to fill your graveyard, why put this effect on a red card instead of a black or green card so it works with the undergrowth mechanic?

I fully understand how the jump start mechanic works with exiling cards from your hand to charge spells, however, this card seems like it should be a replacement effect for the card going from hand to exile only and not overriding the jump start mechanic entirely.

@Brigby is there any way we can get some clarification regarding the mechanics on this card? I reported this nearly two weeks ago now and there's been no official word on if this is indeed a bug or if this is intended behavior. Also if it's intended, can we get some enlightenment as to the logic behind the card's design as it seems really bad as-is.

[Deleted User]

Agreed. But thank goodness its not a completely useless card like rishidan port... and others

Tombstone

Hi everyone, based on the card's description Experimental Frenzy seems to be functioning correctly, but I'll reach out to the team for confirmation on whether or not it's current behavior is intended. 

NinjaE

It seems pretty useless for the jump start deck as is, so I'll be curious to see the response

Magagumo

So if its functioning correctly, it's purpose is to reward red undergrowth decks that draw too much and want to discard directly to graveyard? And to seemingly boost jump start decks but in fact locks them out??

That was the cards intent?

Tombstone

Hi everyone, I've gotten confirmation that this card is functioning as intended. Since Experimental Frenzy circumvents exiling cards and instead sends them to the graveyard, the Mana from these cards is not put toward the Jump Start effect.    

Laeuftbeidir

Okay.. So it's a card optimized for the plane of Amonkhet.. I can live with that, it's still a good mythic. But then, the jumpstart thingy is completely irrelevant.

I had the idea, that the three mana gained per JS card in the graveyard would stack, meaning the mana for the second card will start filling the first until its full and then flow over. Mostly, because I didn't read the comment above when someone else did the very same thing.

But it isn't. Every card with jumpstart will gain mana for itself. This card, that should help your JS strategy completely prevents it from happening at all.

@Tombstone can you please reach out if this is intended as well? Because if it is, I have some serious follow up questions.

Mburn7

Tombstone said:

Hi everyone, I've gotten confirmation that this card is functioning as intended. Since Experimental Frenzy circumvents exiling cards and instead sends them to the graveyard, the Mana from these cards is not put toward the Jump Start effect.    

This is a very poor design choice.  As others have said, why bother giving some mana to Jump Start cards if you are completely unable to fill them up the rest of the way?

A possible solution would be to make it "all jump start cards in your graveyard gain 1 mana" instead of just the one card gaining 3.  Now that is a mythic I would play.

wereotter

I agree, this makes it a VERY poorly designed card as it appears on the surface to be a card to make jump start stronger but instead makes the mechanic impotent. I question the point of this card's existence at all, even within the Amonkhet block considering there's only 1 red card with embalm or eternalize. Every mechanic that would want you to be able to throw cards from your hand into your graveyard exists outside of red.

Might I suggest lowering the shield count on this support if no adjustment to its behavior is going to be made? I can see the benefit to throwing cards in my graveyard if I know the support is going to die in just 1 or 2 matches, but as is, there is literally no reason to play this card in any standard deck.

boopers

@Tombstone

I'm a bit late to this party, but the function of this card has always bugged me.  I agree that it functions as written, but I don't think it really functions in a way that would make sense from a conceptual design intent.  

It seems like the intent of the card was probably to change the jumpstart mechanic so that you trade-off the ability to decide how much mana to send into the GY when you exile cards -- for the ability to reliably fill jumpstart cards without exiling from hand or to send empty jumpstart cards to the GY for later casting.

This would make it work a little bit like Djinn of Illuminatus, where casting jump start cards would give mana to jumpstart cards in the GY.  That's a pretty cool idea for a card, and there is precedent for the concept with Djinn.

However, as others have pointed out here, the effect of the card is to essentially to make jumpstart unplayable.

What I'm getting at -- While the card is functioning as written, perhaps it was not written as it was intended to function.  Did we ask Octagon's design team to review the design, or just to verify it was functioning as written?  Only Octagon can answer (or revisit design intent) - and I was wondering if you could put the card under review for a design change that would read more like one of these options:

Option 1: Replicate some of the function of the Djinn - version 1
"Whenever you exile a card from your hand, that card goes to the graveyard instead of being exiled.  Whenever a spell with jump-start enters your graveyard, ALL cards with jumpstart gain 3 mana."

Option 2: Replicate some of the function of the Djinn - version 2
"Whenever you exile a card from your hand, that card goes to the graveyard instead of being exiled.  Whenever a spell with jump-start enters your graveyard, that card gains 3 mana, then all cards with jumpstart in your GY gain 1 mana."

Option 3:  Make the support self-destruct reliably
"Whenever you exile a card from your hand, that card goes to the graveyard instead of being exiled.  Whenever a spell with jump-start enters your graveyard, that card gains 3 mana, and this support loses one shield" 

Note: number of shields should probably be 6 if designed this way)


Just some ideas to consider... it really is a very broken card as written.